doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Damascus explained

reb87: Thanks so much for graciously sharing these (high quality) pics-which'll be added to the PictureTrail
http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery.fcgi?p=999&gid=16082038
Schaefer- Is that Wm. R. Schaefer? Rose pattern Bernard?
Whitney Safety Fire Arms Co. with the grip safety lock- Two Iron Crolle?
Spencer- Is that Spencer Arms Co. or Lancaster-Spencer? another 'Stars & Stripes' American Flag? To my eye it looks just like the Flues 1 1/2 that Mike posted.
Is that about right?

I don't have much trouble understanding how the "irons" or composite rods could be sized, thinned, stretched between rolls. How precisely are the edge welds achieved once the spiral is on the "negative draft mandrel"? Is there an unstated suggestion here that somewhere in the northeastern U.S. existed a powered hammer akin to a predecessor of the Rotoforger which Ithaca used on the steel billets for the 37. Different ends here I admit. If the output of Belgian hammer jockies wasn't up to he demand, where's the equipment or the record of the equipment that replaced them? The patent drwg of the faux applique machine is interesting. Where's the drwg of a machine that could make the real McCoy?

jack

I've followed this thread with some interest. I would like to suggest that anyone that is interested in damascus steel try to get hold of a copy of "Damascus Steel" by Manfred Sachse. I am unaware of any book that covers the subject more throughly than this one. The copy that I have belonged to Oscar Gaddy and I purchased it from his wife after he passed away.

I'm not sure whether it is possible to scan and post some of the pictures that are in the book but I believe that the information in this book may clear up some of the questions about damascus manufacture.

Rabbit, I wouldn't mix in hammer forging just yet...and if you really want to understand barrel damascus, try to avoid the overwhelming volumes of blade technology {which is mostly forged}...the reason the mandrel had negative draft (slightly tapered) was so it could be removed easily.
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Reb87...about your Spencer...there are several different names associated with that design...The "Norwich" and Torkelson are just two...hopefully someone, who lives near Norwich or Worcester Connecticut, will take the time to sort out the evolution of the Norwich gun...somewhere I have a Torkelson that is very similar to your Spencer..seems To me that Torkelson was associated with Iver Johnson, John Lovell, Andrew Fryberg, and Martin Bye among others. The evolution of the Norwich or Worcester gun has yet to be roughed out, let alone examined closely...

Before this slips to far down the page. Doug please scan and share!!

Bob, I can't imagine why the edge welding method would go out the window simply because the master and his gang aren't fast enuf. Hammers can't be ganged, made into shaped swages, powered by hydraulic ram? How precisely would these strips be welded if not by pressure? Surely you're not suggesting heliarc in 1863. As for "negative" draft, if you had been around patternmaking or toolmaking for any molding or casting trade, you'd know that there is just draft (taper). Never heard the word negative used in the several years I spent around tooling for hand-laid fiberglass and vacuum-formed plastics. The only context I can think for the concept of positive and negative is in the relationship of plug to tool to final product.

jack

Edge welding didn't go out the window...you can't make damascus or twist tubes without edge welding...and whats all the talk about rotary hammers and heliarc? I guess I wasn't specific enough when I said don't mix in "hammer forging" referring to Ithaca's rotary forge that's 50 years later than the period of interest here. Hydraulic rams? trip hammers never had hydraulic rams? You've lost me...
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Edge welding can be easily achieved with heat, pressure, and borax...impact is not necessary, it's just another way of delivering pressure...

Spencer 1882 pump. The Barrel is damascus and the tube magazine is twist.

Bob,
I have seen Forehand arms and Hopkins Allen shotguns that look exactly like this one(spencer). Ill have to dig out my Torkelson and compare them.
Ross

I didn't use either the word "impact" or "triphammer", Bob. In fact if you look closely, you'll see that I used the word "pressure" which can be applied, as you say, by the momentus momentarius or the squeezus sustainus ha ha ha ha. Indeed the RotoForger may not be in the line of descent from whatever method and mechanism you're suggesting. What is? Hollow ram on the end of the mandrel that bucks up the edges of the spiral. Cmon, what ARE YOU talking about (in specifics of course)?

jack