doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Damascus explained

REB87...What? ...AF touch mark on Liege barrels...marked S Sutherland...on a George Ferriss patent...??? Is that correct? It is rumored that George went to France...possibly something to do with Ferris wheel...but that is the wrong George Ferris..
.
the George Ferriss that was issued pat # 119834 is spelled with double s...Ferris (wheel) is single s
.
It's not that I don't believe you, it's just that the Belgians would rather leave the name off of the gun, than pay royalties to some New York Yankee.
.
A couple of years back on this bullitin board system, several members chatted it up over some Belgian made double that was made on Lefever patents...I say "bull"! Either that gun does not exist, or perhaps it's a converted Belgian muzzleloader from back in the days when Lefever was converting muzzle loaders into breech loaders like the Barber and Lefevers..
.
I can see the patent Ferriss breech on your barrels, but with an August Francotte touchmark, I guess it's possible, as Francotte seemed to be one of the few Liege makers that paid royalties rather than just make an improvement on other designs ,giving them a means of circumventing the original patent,like the Deforney Holland ejector system.
.
If your gun is in fact made on a George Ferriss patent, it belongs in a museum. If it's originally made that way ,and not converted, with ANY Ferriss markings, it should probably be in the Liege Arms Museum...so...I'm guessing it's a converted gun or a Belgian design rip-off (post 1871) only because the gun seems to be too good (interesting) to be true...which is it?
.
Utah...your Flues 1 1/2 barrels are exactly the "stars and stripes" pattern known as American Flag Damascus...American Flag Bunting Damascus would have been a more accurate description, but since everyone knew what bunting was back then, there was no need to include the word. Bunting was popular back then, it's relatively rare today...
.

Robert,
Here are some more pics of said gun.
It is marked "Fine Laminated Steel S Sutherland" on the rib.

It is marked "GH Ferriss Patent" on the left plate, "October 10 1876" on the right.

Ross

OK ...it's not the patent breech that I first thought, but wow, that gun still belongs on a museum...I thought you had an example of the cap lock breech loader as can be seen in patent 119834...Geo Ferriss had many patents, but none that I have are on on that date...Rather than sway anyones interpretation of your photos along with the proofs and touchmarks, I will just show the two shotgun patents that I have and hopefully many observant eyes will result in an accurate understanding of this extremely unusual double...This gun deserves it's own thread. Even if it stalls for months 'til the right bits of Belgian data surface..That MG brevete number on the action flats will probably corresponde to that patent date. Maybe that patent will answer some questions. More likely, it'll create more questions...I'll try to run it down..
.
I can't help but wonder about the Belgian connection...Did George try to market his design abroad, like Browning and Newton did, or was he already connected to the Belgians because of his ordnance designs?





Some damascus data to follow shortly

Pete M- I think Doug Mann posted that Linder Daly and labeled it "Truk (Turkish) Extra" Looks to be maybe SIX Iron Crolle with a "Star" pattern. Very high quality damascus.
reb87- I added your S. Sutherland laminated steel brls to the PictureTrail (next to Daryl's W&C Scott) and thanks! Is it c. 1880?
William- VERY nice job on your brls!
and Robert- thanks for explaining the 'Stars and Stripes' bunting pattern!

In my opinion damascus steel, as with all other alloys, has never reached the degree of sophisication as it has in recent decades [except for maybe the high art of the Prince Phillip, Remington, or Terrell type damascus]...Well here are some leads for anyones American damascus files...
.
In 1937, there was a company in Rockford Ill. by the name of Damascus Steel Product Corporation. They held a patent for a meat cleaver, but that couldn't have been their only product...Of course 1937 is very late for damascus barrels...
.
In 1856, John Nevill and Lemuel Curtis recieved a patent for simplified damascus substitute [alloy] assigned to J P Farrar of the "Damascus Steel Manufacturing Company"...kind of early for the golden age of double shotgun production, but none the less, another lead.
.

Warner is from New York City


The Sachs technique or something similar has been seen on a high grade Parker
.
There are several more damascus shotgun patents to be shown in the next weeks...sorry they're difficult to locate because they are pre- personal computer files...

Here is a pic that John Mann (I think)sent me some time ago. The second pic is my Clark and Sneider. It just started sprinkling rain when I snapped the pic.

Barrels on an unusual gun I have.

FRANKLIN BROCKWAY WARNER
Patents:
818802 - DUST CAP AND SOLAR EYEPIECE FOR TELESCOPES
1181704 -BARREL FOR SHOTGUNS AND RIFLES
1167233 - MANUFACTURE OF BARRELS FOR SHOTGUNS AND RIFLES

Interesting description for 1,167,233. He was trying to fix the problem of corrosion caused by early nitro powder. His solution was to leave the mandrel in the damascus tube then bore out the mandrel. This gets referenced years later by E.R. Shaw for a patent they filed regarding barrel inserts.

GUSTAAY ADOLF SACHS
Lived in the Dakota territories, then moved to Eugene Oregon.
Patents:
353432 - BREECH-LOADING FIRE-ARM
410678 - METHOD OF ORNAMENTING GUN-BARRELS
495639 - BREAKDOWN BREECH-LOADING GUN
523130 - EJECTOR FOR BREAKDOWN GUNS
674284 - BREECH-LOADING FIREARM
759637 - BURGLAR-ALARM
The Sachs patent essentially engraves a twist pattern on a barrel. A novel approach to faux damascus.

John Nevill
Issue date: Dec 9, 1856
16214 - IMPROVEMENT IN MAKING CAST-STEEL
He claims to describe a method to convert wrought-iron to cast steel.
http://www.google.com/patents?id=K81UAAA...is=1857#PPP1,M1

George H. Ferris
Patents:
118849 - IMPROVEMENT IN CARTRIDGE-LOADERS
119834 - IMPROVEMENT IN BREECH-LOADING FIRE-ARMS
246108 - CANNON

Here's a couple for you Robert:
James R Bradley and Moses D. Brown of Chicago, IL
72162 - IMPROVEMENT IN THE MANUFACTURE OF STEEL
Issue date: Dec 17, 1867

Reinhard-Mannesmann of Remscheid, Prussia
365482 - PROCESS OF ROLLING DAMASKEENED RODS
Issue date: Jun 28, 1887
Filed in Germany, England and the USA

WILLIAM EOSE of Halesowen, England
39174 - IMPROVEMENT IN THE QUALITY AND ORNAMENTATION OF METALS
Issue date: Jul 7, 1863

Pete

Thanks...I didn't have the Mannesmann patent...Bradley and Eose didn't have drawings to post pics of...but I really want to thank you for getting the ball rolling on American made damascus. In the past, damascus experts rejected any notion that other than "uncle Bob" (or someone) at Ithaca, damascus simply was not produced in America. In fact damascus steel, the earliest available form of carbon steel, was produced to some degree, in nearly every industrial nation.The information you've posted points to the the real truth about damascus actually being rolled rather than forged since c1880's. In the past at this BBS system, that kind of information, that flies in the face of common long held beliefs, could have got you a gang bashing here. Everyone took Greeners forging information and used it as a corner stone. I seriously doubt that any of the post 1890 barrels were forged. I'm guessing that post 1890 barrels make up 95% of the damascus doubles out there. It's been a long time since I read the Eose patent, but I think rolling damascus weighed heavy into it, and that was 1863..
.
It's hard to believe that most of these guys actually think that a team of 3 Belgian Elves, working for Lochet-Hebron, worked for days hand forging each tube, as pictured in Greener's book. Yeah right! Then they added shipping to America where the workers at Ithaca Gun Co, knit the barrels together, built a gun around them, the sold it for $40 retail.
.
Most of damascus barrels that we see were machine wound onto a negative draft mandrel, and rolled off the assembly line like hotcakes. [no pun intended...wootz cakes] Probably some of the, stubborn about tradition, Brits, continued to hand forge a little later but it wasn't Greener.
.
Pete, one last thing...about your last post...it's made up of highly concentrated data that leads directly to volumes more information. The problem is, all the hours of work it takes to construct such a posting is lost once the thread dies. Had you printed it, photographed it and posted the image, readers could save your entire post as 1 image. This way, your hard earned posting would never die and have a better chance of getting into the hands of the next researcher. With all the time you've already spent, I don't feel right about asking for more. I was just hoping that some future researcher could stand on your shoulders for a better look....

Bob

Schaefer



Whitney



Spencer