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Joined: Jun 2015
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L3n4rd Offline OP
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Well guys on your advice I ran out and bought it. I was able to talk the price down to $2400 out the door!

Now that it is in my possession, there are no proofs anywhere near the muzzle end. The bottom front of the fore end has what appears to be a horn insert and the trigger guard is the same material.

None of the screws have any perceptible markings on them and all the engraving still lines up perfectly so the gun shop tells me it is doubtful it was ever opened.

Also included in the documentation, was a verbal story about the provenance (war bring back) the test fired cartridges (do not yet have them) and receipts and notes from a gunsmith for looking over the firearm to make sure it is safe, test firing it, and chamber casting it.

I'll get some more picture up to show you the whole package soon.

In the mean time, can you point me to a good resource for load data for antique guns? I still plan to recast the chamber before committing time and money to acquiring any particular ammo and to keep the gun safe!

Any tips on maintaining and caring for it as well as methods of preservation/for long term storage? I do plan to keep it a shooter if possible so recommended cleaning materials as well?

Last edited by L3n4rd; 06/29/15 02:21 PM.
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L3n4rd,
You did good buying it.The 118.35 gauge usually equates to a groove diameter of .357-.359", instead of .365-.366"for 9.3x74R. Raimey mentioned 9.3x72R S&S;it is so similar to 9.3x74R, that I shot 6 Red Deer with mine using 74R ammo, before finding out the mistake.It only blew one primer.It doesn't matter much which case you need, you can make ammo to use, and have fun doing it.If you think that is too much trouble, I will be happy to give your money back.
Mike

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A very good DR indeed. The seven-pointed crown suggests the original owner was a baron/freiherr.

With kind regards,
Jani

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Good for you!!!!! I'd be grinnin' like a possum eatin'.....well...you know. Once you ascertain the actual cartridge there's more than a few on here who can help you with loads and development. As Mike has often pointed out to me, it doesn't matter what it's chambered to, brass can be formed/made from something and you can call it what you want. Bullet molds are available from several sources and can be made in the proper weight and diameter. With 2 fired cases Dave at CH-4D can make proper loading dies without breaking the bank. If it is indeed the 9.3 X 74R data and components abound. When you make a new chamber cast add a couple inches and you will pick up the bore also.

I assume Raimey wanted to see the muzzles for any possible damage or excessive wear.

As far as maintenance, pretty much like any other firearm. The only difference would be to keep the hinge pin lightly greased but that holds true on any break action firearm. Recently I cleaned and lightly greased the hinge pins on all my break action firearms. One or two benefitted greatly, others you couldn't tell the difference...but it's been done, is better and I feel better about having done it.

GOOD ON YOU!!! Congratulations and forgive me for a bit of envy...


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About a week ago I was perusing the auction sites and I came across a Zeiss Zielvier from the pre-War era with a very strange set of rings on it. They extended some distance to the right of the scope tube and appeared to be fitted with female dovetails. Not until I saw the scope mount base on your rifle did I grasp what they were intended for.

I went back and scoured all the sites I had looked at, but evidently the auction was over and unlike on eBay, there is no way of finding the results of a closed auction on eGun. I'll keep my eyes open and should it come up, again I'll notify you.

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I went back and looked at one site I had neglected, German eBay, and there it was: http://www.ebay.de/itm/WH-Zielfernrohr-Zielvier-von-Carl-Zeiss-fruehe-Version-Top-Zustand-mit-Koecher-/191601801995?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_77&hash=item2c9c5b7b0b&nma=true&si=LETjngBTlwbw446rQhuH8iZphrs%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

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L3n4rd Offline OP
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Thanks for that info and that's an excellent find! I'll be keeping an eye on German ebay from now on and brushing up on my German a little bit...

Here are a few more pics of it overall and the muzzle end. The bore is still a little bit dusty from being upright on the shelf in the gun shop; I haven't run any patches through it yet. I'll be back with more info once I get the chamber cast done and slug the bore.

Thanks again guys!










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Neat
Thank you
I look forward to a further report
Mike


USAF RET 1971-95 [Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
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L3n4rd Offline OP
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Ok all I've got the chamber casts! I'm not 100% what to make of them yet; at this point picking from only the cartridges I know, I'm leaning towards 9.3x74r based on the shoulder diameter and the OAL. However, here are some pics and the results posted below.

Right Chamber
OAL - 2.9425 (closer to x74)
Base Diameter - .4775 (closer to x72 Sauer)
Shoulder - .412 (closer to x74)
Neck - .3905 (closer to x72 Sauer)
2nd Neck - .392
Groove Diameter - .3625
Neck taper is very slight, looking at picture is looks closer to x74
Measured 1hr 20min after cast.

Left Chamber
OAL - 2.960 (closer to x74)
Base Diameter - .4725 (closer to x72 Sauer)
Shoulder - .411 (closer to x74)
Neck - .390 (closer to x72 Sauer)
2nd Neck - .393
Groove Diameter - .362
Neck taper is very slight, looking at picture is looks closer to x74
Measured 1hr 2min after cast.

1st pic shows a visual comparison of 9.3x72r Sauer & 9.3x74r
It is from Cartridges of the World 4th Edition 1980. My Purpose here is to compare the shoulder angles.


2nd pic shows the cast of the left chamber & beginning of bore. I am only posting the left cast as the pics came out better but I do have pics of the right chamber cast.


3rd pic shows a visual comparison of a 9.3x74r snap cap from A-Zoom with the chamber cast. Comparing the shoulder angle to the snap cap and the the first picture it seems to more closely match x74.


4th pic is a close up to attempt to show the similarity of the neck between the snap cap and the cast.


5th pic shows my measurements and sketches to show where I took the measurements. The numbers in the bottom corner are when an hour was up after casting and when I measured. The x72 or x74 are the cartridges those dimensions were closer to.


6th pics shows the case measurement data I used, it is taken from Cartridges of the World 4th Edition 1980.


Additional Info.

The rifle closes easily on 9.3x74r snap caps manufactured by A-Zoom without issue. There are no marks on them to indicate they are being crushed.

I have one live 9.3x74r cartridge manufactured by Norma, date unknown; it looks older though. The rifle closes easily over that cartridge in either chamber.

Now to quote advice on another thread.

Thread:
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=402766&page=1

Originally Posted By: Der Ami
bls,
You can tell which 9.3 it is, pretty easily.The 72R is close to 30-30 head size, although rim dia of 30-30 is a little larger. The 74R is close to the 30-06 headsize( just a little smaller, but a 06 case will usually go in( try it head first). With a 30-30 and 30-06 case, you can figure it out.BTW Buchsemann is correct that you can use the Brenneke in any choke avaliable.The 9,3x72R is about like 38-55 to 35 Rem. A lot of deer have fallen to both of them.
Mike


Using this info the rifle closes on a 30-30 case no problem; the rim skips the extractors easily. A 30-06 does not fit all the way into the chamber but will slip in without issue case turned around.

Thanks again for any and all help!
Matt

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L3n4rd Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: ellenbr
Lovely, just lovely fences. I haven't closely examined, but the trademark of the lion lying in repose should have Leue on the body. Pleasure us with an image of the muzzle.

http://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=157111&page=1

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse


Upon closer inspection the reposing lions do indeed have Leue on the body, thanks!

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