doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com 8x57 JR on the cheap

Were some of the M88's either rebored or rebarreled to JRS, or did they just have a wide range of bore sizes originally? My buddy does not shoot his M88 often, but I know he had some difficulty finding .318" dia. bullets and talked about buying a mold and sizers to shoot cast bullets. I recall him showing me some targets he had shot with his .318" loads, and it shot pretty well, probably about 2 1/2" groups with no flyers at 100 yards with the military sights and young eyeballs. The bore was not pristine, but not at all bad. He bought it dirt cheap back when many gun shops had drums and racks of various old military guns for well under 100 bucks. The M88 Mausers were at the very low end of the price scale with Carcano's and Japs. Sure wish I had bought a bunch like he did, but I was happy with one Krag to use as a rainy day back-up rifle. I did pick up a nice Spanish Mauser 7 m/m for $45 at a flea market a few years ago, but that was a stroke of luck.

keith,
To start with, the groove diameter of many of these barrels was larger than .318", usually about .320-.321. This was intentionel,being the first german military rifle for a smokeless powrer/jacketed bullet load,they still had black powder barrel provisions on their minds. I don't know if it was to allow room for powder residue, or to allow room for the bullet jacket to expand when it is engraved by the rifling( of course we now prefer bullets the same size as groove diameter).The 8X57IS cartridge was not introduced for a couple years after it was approved.This time was used to inspect all the rifles in the German inventory and modify them as necessary for the new ammo.Sights had to be modified to match the trajectory of the new ammunition.More importantly for this conversation, during testing, it was determined that a slightly oversize bullet doesn't always excessively raise the pressure.On the other hand, if the neck is jammed into the leade area of the chamber,and can't expand to release the bullet, then pressure does rise excessively. As part of the checking inventory to insure safe use of IS ammo, the tight chambers were reamed to essentially 8x57IS dimensions.They could, therefore, be safely used with the new ammo.However( and this is a big "however"), this inspection/modification was not necessarily done to rifles not in the German military inventory.Excluded from this inspection were 8x57I chambered rifles sold to other nations, of given to allies.Also,civilian sporting rifles didn't have this inspection(some may be OK and others not). Do I have you confused enough yet?
Mike

No Mike, you made things very clear and answered my questions perfectly. I've told the story here of having a complete head separation on a M98 Mauser rebarreled to .22-250. I was totally blind for about a half an hour and it took about another half hour before my vision cleared enough to pack up and drive home. A lot of things go through your head when you are suddenly blinded. We're talking about guns here which are not as strong and do not have the gas handling characteristics of the M98, so it is prudent to respect their design limitations and use the correct ammunition. I appreciate the time you took to clarify things.

Keith,
The m88s and 98s were proofed to the same pressure, so the m88 is not a "weak" action. Gas handling characteristics are a different story, however. This applies even when your friend is using .318" bullets.Your problem with the 22-250, seems to be from an entirely different cause.
Mike

Mike, yes it was. I got a fantastic deal on a VZ 24 nicely sporterized and barreled to .22-250. The seller gave me his pet load which he said would group under 1/2" all day long. A buddy who had sold his .22-250 and bought a .220 Swift traded me his .22-250 dies and 7 or 8 boxes of brass for a stock finishing job on his flintlock.

He was the kind of guy who started at max and worked his way up from there, and he didn't keep track of how many times his brass had been reloaded. I should have scrapped it all. I didn't know his gun had a short chamber and my new gun was in tolerance, but near max. headspace.

I bore sighted the gun with a 12x Redfield scope and fired a shot. The bolt was hard to open and the primer was very flattened. Like a fool, I tried another, and the same thing happened. The first two shots were almost touching, and I decided to try one more. When I pulled the trigger, it felt like Mike Tyson hit me in the face, and when I opened my eyes, I was totally blind and could feel blood on my face. At first, I thought I was feeling eyeball juice. I had a complete head separation with that old brittle brass. As I said, it was a good 1/2 hour before I started to see little blips of light, and another 1/2 hour before my vision cleared enough to drive home. I had the range to myself that evening which hardly ever happened, and that was a long wait in the dark. I yelled for help, but there was no one within earshot. I thought about not being able to work at my job anymore, and having to learn Braille, and getting a seeing eye dog, and a white cane, and a lot of other things. When I got to my truck and looked in the mirror, I had a strange vee shaped pattern of powder and brass particles around my right eye.

After a while, I tried the gun again, with the same load and brand new brass, while tied to an old tire and fired with a long string on the trigger. Absolutely no problems, and the primers were barely flattened at all. They looked almost unfired except for the firing pin indentation. Later, I actually increased the charge by about 1 grain with no change in accuracy. A few years later, I read an article in RIFLE magazine by Mauser expert Ludwig von Olsen, and he demonstrated the improved gas handling of the M98 by intentionally weakening a .30-06 case and firing the gun with a piece of card stock behind the action with two X's where your eyes would be. The vee shaped pattern left between the "eyes" was exactly what had been left on my face. Paul Mauser knew his stuff. I had made several mistakes that day, and number one was not wearing shooting glasses. Number two was seeing obvious signs of a problem, and deciding to keep shooting. I was young, and I wish I could say that is the craziest thing I ever did. A lot of folks would say that any of us who shoot Damascus are crazy too.

I've told this story here before, but don't mind repeating it if it prevents someone who hasn't seen it from doing the same thing.

I did not know that the M88's and M98's were proofed to the same pressures. Can the same be said about other Mausers? If so, what is behind the thinking that M93's and M95's should be held to lower operating pressures other than lesser gas handling characteristics and lack of third lugs, etc.?

Keith,
They were both proofed for 8x57. The proof pressure is tied to the cartridge, not to the rifle. The 91-96 mausers or m88 don't have the third(safety)lug,but that only comes into play when(if) the main lugs fail.The safety lug doesn't bear against the action under normal conditions.I have heard it said, "If you haven't blown one up, you aren't having fun yet." You will likely disagree with the fun part, but at least it was exciting.
Mike