doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Guess your best.

Doing a little fine gun babysitting this week, and have come across a rare bird. All you guys that have a little Darne knowledge take a stab at what we are looking at.



Everybody thinks that a shot of the flats will help. It doesn't help me much, but, the proof with powder M gives an idea as to age, if nothing else.



It isn't very likely that it is what you think.

Best,
Ted

It's obviously a Darne, it says so on that barrels release thingy. Or is this just a cheap Darne copy?

Interesting ACIER MANDRINE tube steel type. There's some patent info on the underside of the right tube.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Just a stab, Could it be a model P?

You get the prize for clearest thinking, but, I'll be completely honest-I have no idea, really, exactly what it is. The gun predates the typical Darne grading system, and is proofed with a powder that ceased being used before 1900.
It has a rocker safety, similar to the 1894 patent R, a large key action, and a removable breech block, unlike a model P. However, the method one uses to remove the breech block is unlike anything I've ever seen:



Once you have the very V like action open, you can slide the little serrated tab down in the slot, and at that point, raise the key and slide the breech off in normal Darne fashion.

The gun has what appears to be a mount to use it in punt gun fashion, in the bottom:




Here is a better shot of the flats, for Raimey:



The gun is, sadly, a wall hanger at this point. Both rails in the breech suffer from fractures, likely the result of amature gunsmithing, not honest use, although the gun has seen plenty of that.

Bubba owned the gun, at one point. Although the gun was fitted for the Bretelle Darne, he elected to install sling swivels, anyway, after the fact.
The Bretelle always was expensive, right to this day-a new one, fitted up to the gun, is most of $500:



V grade? P grade? Something else, custom built back in the day?

I really don't know.

Thanks Ted for the effort but for the moment I can't make it out. It would not surprise me if the tubeset was serialized. If so, the XXXX.XXXX on the lower rib may be a date.serial number.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, my digital camera fits in my shirt pocket, the photos aren't the best.The numbers read, left to right, 1900 and 8975. The guns serial is 759, that also appears on the under rib.
The oval, on the underside of the right tube, in back near the lug, has a crown with the initials DD and a tiny star under it. There is a tiny triangle with a D in it on the other side? Didier? Maybe.
"Acier Mandrine" would lead one to think mandrel drawn steel tubes.
Assuming the 1900 is a date, I'm not sure why one would go back to powder M for proof, unless the tubes were made and proofed a few years prior to being used.
It is a sweet handling old gun.

Best,
Ted

I'm confident on the 1900 date for the tubeset. What are the characters near the SGDG - Sans Garantie du Gouvernement( 'brevets sont d�livr�s sans examen pr�alable, aux risques et p�rils des demandeurs, et sans garantie soit de la r�alit�, de la nouveaut� ou du m�rite de l�invention, soit de la fid�lit� ou de l�exactitude de la description '), FON RTN?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Also was there a Certificate of Utility akin to the DRGM(Gebrauchsmuster) for the period?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,

Sorta.
The letters "Fon R Tee" appear before the S.G.D.G. The barrels are double proofed.
Certificates, from that era, are above my pay grade, unfortunately.

Best,
Ted

Ted: In the FWIW column, I saw one of these toggle action Darnes (Bruchet?) guns on an episode of Midsomer Murders on Netflix last night. It made two appearances, first in the ambush murder of the Lord of the Estate's wife during a driven shoot, and then later as the instrument used by the guilty parties to execute a murder/suicide pact. It struck me as telling that this British program didn't use an "English" gun to perform these foul deeds. The gun was very clearly shown, with the action being operated to load it, just so there was no confusion with anything produced in Merry Old England.

Interesting gun, Ted--but I can't add anything other than the clues you guys have picked up on. Acier Mandrine . . . so made from orange squeezings?

Lloyd,
I have heard that a few of the US helicopter pilots in Viet Nam cut the butt stock and barrels from Darnes obtained locally, to use as "last ditch" type weapons. I've been told the story more than once over the years, and being that 'Nam was a French colony, a Darne might have been more frequently encountered than any thing else.

Jihadi John is a product of England, it would seem to me that the English have more important things to worry about than what country produced a TV murder weapon.

Best,
Ted

I wonder where WildCattle is roaming about? He should have stampeded thru this thread by now?


Any chance the Fon RTEE S.G.D.G. is Fon Bte S.G.D.G.with some odd BTE overstamp with an extra E??? It appears that there were some additional marks that have been worked off the tubeset.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

http://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=276179&page=all

skeettx, can you tell us what's in the oval on the breech end? Also what is the xxxx.xxxx on the underside of the right tube?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Wildcattle was last here on the 20th, I hope he is enjoying a warm vacation somewhere.

The marks you asked about are very clear, and what appears to be marks that are rubbed off are boat rash and the typical things you see on a 100+ year old gun. I will try to get a better photo up tomorrow.

Most of the marks are pretty clear considering the age of the gun, and the condition of the rest of it, which, is the commonly seen "rode hard, and put up wet". This example, has bad gunsmithing, to boot. It is an unfortunate fact that a guy who is well qualified to pull down and repair a SLE, may be well over his head with a sliding breech, of any design.

Best,
Ted

Can not tell you
but here it is




Mike

Indeed, seems as if it was defaced? Is the other cheek any better. For sure, your tubeset was completed in 1918. Any hard info to indicate otherwise? We may be on the cusp of stating that Didier Drevet serialized his tubesets akin to what L. Bernard commenced(Did L. Bernard surpass 14k tubesets?).

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Another of my French guns, so I am guessing it is a manufacturer stamp.

Possibly Marsot's liability stamp? Know any other Darne types with Didier Drevet tubesets?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

And neither of my shotguns are of Darne action.
Mike

Ah yes, Didier Drevet, DD surmounted by a Crown in an oval.

Permit me to rephrase, do you have knowledge of any other Didier Drevet tubesets with serialization?


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I do not, perhaps others here??

Here's another from 1908:




1908.12740 - Didier Drevet - Etablissements Didier-Drevet
Eureka
Modele Depose

Canon Plume - Patent for d'Eureka-Canon-Plume, Oct 10, 1899 for DD at 5 & 11 rue Villeboeuf, St. Etienne



http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=193705

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Lifted this little gem of a post card from 1917.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

"Le canon Plume :
8 - En 1855, Pierre Didier Drevet, ma�tre canonnier st�phanois remporte la m�daille d'or lors de l'Exposition Universelle de Paris pour la confection d'un canon en Damas exceptionnel ; un si�cle plus tard, la maison existe toujours et se distingue par un canon ultra-l�ger, sans bande, o� les deux tubes sont r�unis au moyen d'une cale unique (brevet d�pos� le 10 octobre 1899, par les Etablissements Didier-Drevet) se terminant � z�ro pr�s des assemblages, le tout bras�. Exc�dent de bande arrondi et dont l'extr�mit�, � cinq centim�tres du tonnerre, se termine en forme de "bec d'aigle".Ce mod�le baptis� "Plume-Eur�ka", par l'absence de bandes, est un canon extr�ment l�ger qui, cependant demeure plus �pais aux endroits essentiels et pr�sente des tubes parfaitement ronds sur toute leur surface ; le guidon d'une conception tr�s sp�ciale est noy� � l'extr�mit� des deux tubes, se trouvant sensiblement plus bas que la visi�re, ce qui fait automatiquement donner un coup haut. D'autres canonniers st�phanois vont exceller dans la construction de ce type de canon, la Maison Fanget en particulier, produit qui �quipera et fera appr�cier, dans la premi�re moiti� du XXe si�cle, des armes de chasse all�g�es et belles gr�ce � cette particularit� : le canon "plume"."

http://gravure.blog.fr/2011/03/28/la-fabrication-des-canons-a-saint-etienne-suite-10904999/

I don't see the term Mandrine right off but interesting to locate Diamant Vercar. So the tubes on the subject sporting weapon might be a predecessor to the Canon Plume patent making them manufactured prior to 1899 & knitted in 1900??

Ted, I'm assuming these tubes/wand is feather-weight-esk?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
The stamp from Didier is identicle in the photos posted above. That said, these barrels feature a regular, non plume rib WITH an under rib. Further, the barrels have a pretty heavy wall. I was surprised as the gun is close to 7 lbs, and, as I posted already, seems to have suffered having a mount for use as a punt gun installed near the point of balance. The right tube is marked with the typical "Non Pour le Balle" warning that went on guns with a tight choke.
I have seen a few older Darne models with the same tube sets, but, those guns always have had a stamp as to grade, either the typical circle with the word "Darne" in the middle of it, or, the much older little star like stamps, with the same, "count and add ten" to get the grade of the gun. I've seen far more guns proofed with powder J or S than powder M, just an anecdotal observation.
Somewhere between 1900 and the new patent R model of 1909, mono block barrels started becoming the typical barrels encountered on Darne products, except the Halifax model, which, was always a brazed barrel gun.

Best,
Ted

Perhaps the nicest French gun I've ever owned was a sideplated boxlock 16 by Drevet. I was not as into proofmarks etc back then as I am now, so I can't recall the DD with a crown. As best I can recall, it was marked "Drevet a Chateauroux".

Lifted another Didier-Drevet Advert which is from 1911

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

YUP, sweet barrels

What's stamped on the toplever?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Ted, did you get your question answered??
Mike

Odd that it does not have the proverbial stop???? And that's the 1918 example?


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Yes! It is!
and yes it does,
Just well hidden when closed



Mike

It was 'sorta rhetorical, Mike. The gun is missing any kind of grade marking, and combines features from at least three different patent Darne designs, and at least one trick (the tab to release the opening lever) completely unique to this individual gun.
LeRoy Merz has a very similar gun listed on Guns International. Of course, there are no pictures of the flats of the barrels, or, the side of the gun where the intersting and different tab to remove the breech block would be.
Is there a school that dealers go to to learn to take photos that provide little hard information about used guns?
I wonder.

Best,
Ted

Acier Mandrine- mandrel steel- turned on a lathe?

Was traveling in Europe for work, but I am back.
A few comments, that could be improved with the pictures:
- Fon Btee is I believe for
Fabrication Brevetee.
I.e the manufacturing process is (was) patented.
- the barrels are from the 1900 time frame indeed.
Poudre M was used until 1905 or so.
The chamber marks are in cm (6,5) and not in mm (65). I am still struggling with the exact date of change but believe it to be in that same time frame.
- "Mandrinage" refers to a test done by inserting a cone in a hole and looking for permanent expansion without cracking.
You can google "mandrinage canon" for references on that subject. The technique was used for artillery tube testing and many other parts such as nuts and railcar hooks.
In this context, it would mean that the steel used would have been tested accordingly.
The other meanings of "mandrin" are "chuck" (machine tools) and tubes used to wrap paper or fabric on. A mandrin is also used for damascus barrel manufacturing IIRC.
As for the orange, Larry, it is "mandarine".

I like that gun a lot. The "culasse" release is much nicer than the normal one.
Too bad it's been damaged...
Best regards,
WC-

WC,
Hope you got to a warm part of Europe, anyway.

Thanks for the info on the barrels. There are some clues as to the guns origin, but, I was hoping for clues that led us in the direction of what model the gun actually is.
I'm not sure what you are referring to when you say you prefer this guns "release" as compared to the "normal" one-the "key", or, opening lever simply pulls up on a V grade, and the little tab at the back and bottom of the culasse on an R is almost invisible.

The culasse on a P is not easily removable, and requires tools to do so.

A quick review on taking down a V action Darne, for anyone who hasn't had their hand's on one this week:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=356335&page=1

I've never seen anything like it, however, and I wonder if an enterprising (and talented) gunsmith took a close look at an existing P grade gun and modified it to what we see here today? I can't think of a compelling reason to do that, but, that might not stop someone else.

Darne grade guns were well sorted in the catalogs by 1900, another mystery.

Thanks for the input, and, for keeping an eye on Larry.

Best,
Ted

Seems we're overlooking the simple here, linguistically speaking. "Mandrine" follows "acier"--which is a masculine noun. If we're suggesting that "mandrine" is an adjective, that would be wrong. It would have to be "mandrin" to agree with "acier". Thus, my guess is that "mandrine", in this case, is a proper name--like "Acier Jacob Holtzer" on a Verney-Carron. Can't say I've ever seen "Acier Mandrine" before, but the French do use a wide variety of descriptive adjectives and proper nouns to identify barrel steel.

Thanks for the correction on the orange thing, WC. That's why I put a smiley after it.

Easy, Larry, we were just picking on an old man. We would do that, well, because we can.

I think my wife's little Canon camera has some crud inside the lens. This is about the best I can get out of it for a view of the flats:





The only thing I've got left to add is that it isn't uncommon to find pitted bores on old French guns, and this one, old as it is, has perfect, beautiful bores.

More's the pity.

Best,
Ted

No problem. Actually, the photos back on the first page are a little clearer. Don't know whether anyone will recognize "Mandrine" as a maker of barrel steel. However, it came to me, after looking again, that mandrine cannot possibly be an adjective modifying acier. That would be a mistake at the level of grade school French. Neither of my French dictionaries lists "mandrine", although both of them list "mandrin". I also found reference to an infamous French bandit, 18th century, named Mandrin in my Petit Larousse. Which reinforces my belief that there could just as easily be someone named Mandrine. Raimey might be the go-to guy on that one. But as I said, it can't have anything to do with the process by which the steel was made, unless someone made an incredibly basic mistake in adjective/noun agreement. It'd be like finding a reference in my V-C catalog to "acier tres fine" rather than the correct "acier tres fin".

Is this gun not a candidate for micro welding?

Larry,
With all due respect, you are wrong on that one.
Here is a quote found in a google book. (and there were quite a few...)
"d'une plaque de metal prealablemcnt mandrinee de facon a former un cylindre".
Of course the accent is missing (eliminated by Google)as much as it is on the gun (capital letters normally don't have accents).
Dictionnaries are haphazard on old technical wordings. But this was an active technical word. It is not a Brand. It is an adjective and it is germane to barrel making to boot
So there.

Best regards,
WC-

Mike,
I suppose anything is repairable. But, that being economically feasable is questionable in this case.

This, is a telling picture:



Bubba has attempted to drive out the face plate of the breech, and has damaged it badly. The two pins visible in the top of the face plate are ejector pins, and one is free floating at this point in time-it should be under spring tension when the breech is open, to push a fired cartridge off the extractor hook. The firing pin for the right barrel is not retracting, in fact, it is stuck in the hole. The other firing pin won't break a piece of masking tape placed over my snap caps, when the trigger is pulled.
I'm guessing that use with some sort of outsized load in punt gun fashion resulted in the fractures to the breech rails, and, Bubba, being Bubba, just worked them down with a file.
None of this damage looks recent, by the way.
There are better guns out there to begin a project with. I would advise anyone considering a Darne as a project to think twice about that. Unless, you live across the street from the factory.

Best,
Ted

I don't recall but is the stamp of SE over script M(on each tube a well as flats) a maker's mark or proofmark?





Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I really don't think it is a proof mark.
I have never seen that mark before.

The DD mark is now well recognizable.
Didier-Drevet was a famous barrel maker.
I don't know if Pierre Drevet who was the CEO of the Manufrance starting in 1945 was directly related on not.
Dider-Drevet was incorporated into Verney-Carron along Jean-Breuil in 1963 IIRC.
WC-

I think it to represent our culprit/mechanic/entity?? Not sure why he applied it was many times as he did? Any possibility @ all that SE is St. Etienne?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Good catch on the capital letters. But that's only a POSSIBLE solution. Might also be a brand . . . especially since I came up with someone named Mandrin. No way to tell for sure, with no accent to help us. Either way, have you ever seen it on a barrel before this example? I haven't . . . or can't recall if I did. A bit odd that the word, whether a brand or a technical term (actually a past participle used as an adjective, if that's what it is), doesn't seem to have been used all that often on barrels.
Regards,
Larry

Good Lord. The more I look, the worse it gets:



This is a view of the removed breech block, with the opening key closed. It shows the rising bite that engages an extension on the barrels, and it should NOT be a perfect half moon shape. It is, because a piece is rather neatly sheared off, in the exact shape as the extension on the barrels. The bite is making a bit of contact with the extension, as someone added a bit of braze to the bottom, to force it further up into the extension on the barrels.

However, when the clever devil who did that little piece of re-engineering tried to fire the gun, I'm pretty sure he did this:



This view shows the mortised plate that is fitted into the lower action, which forms a perfect wedge when the action of a Darne is completely closed. It is just in front of the piece of steel with the hole in the center of it. However, the braze repair kept the action from closing all the way, and the stress of firing, either the first time it was fired, or, sometime after that, broke the plate right off.

My friend bought this gun for $325, perhaps a decade ago, from someone who had fired it a few times, but, reported the breech was "loose" when the gun was fired. It was purchased as a wall hanger, and hasn't been fired since, Thank God. If you look at the front of the breech photo, you can just make out a crack starting at the corner of the rail the breech slides back and forth on.

This view, of a later V model breech, shows what the rising bite is supposed to look like:



Be careful out there.

Best,
Ted

I doubt, from a metallurgical standpoint, that we are looking at a "braze" on the rising bite-- the trace is the color of dirty mustard, not of brass/bronze with flux, and there is no indication of a HAZ (heat affected zone)- silver soldering at a somewhat lower temp, possibly no HAZ "footprint"- also, as a braze build-up to a sheared off section, would show grind and possibly file marks as the build up needs must be ground smooth to the surface of the parent piece of hardened steel. In looking at the French as metallurgists, one might care to remember that they developed the first successful Electric Arc melt steel furnace, around 1905-- and shortly thereafter, perfected the what we now know as AISI 6150 chrome vanadium alloy steel- and Henry Ford, following a visit to France in that era, introduced it to the American steelmaking industry- How good is 6150 Chrome-Vanadium alloy- Hunter Arms used it for the cocking rods and lifter lugs, how many of those in the great Baker cocking system used by Hunter Arms are known to have broken, one might ask??

Fox,
I haven't posted a picture of the brazed area. It is at the very bottom of the rising bite and driven up by a cam in the action.
What I thought was most notable was the sheared half moon in the fomerly straight across rising bite, and the broken plate in the locking mechanism.


Best,
Ted

As usual Ted interesting stuff. Never really looked at French built guns until reading your threads.

Now, will anyone start a thread about the Georges Granger???

I had a night on the town, in St, Etienne, with Richard Levi, the owner. The guns are superb, got to handle a few in the shop, and saw his inventory of actions-about five, as I recall. His unique, removable sidelock system was a marvel, no nail on the side to remove it, you simply pressed forward on the trigger and the entire sidelock mechanism popped up out of the wood for cleaning or inspection.
Richard wasn't interested in exporting to the states, he had all the work he could do, right in Europe. He was working on the design for a 28 gauge boxlock when I was there.
I think I've seen one ad for a Granger for sale over the years.

Best,
Ted

I think the man to contact about Granger is JJ Perodeau at Champlin Arms. They used to represent Granger in this country. Not sure whether that is still the case.

A highly sought after family heirloom with a very affluent and faithful following or a typical French double that is used hard, thrown in the back of the old Peugeot and cleaned when needed?

If you gotta' ask...

Best,
Ted

Oh, that level. I got it.

May be this brings a bit light into the MANDRINE :

http://lesforgesdemontreal.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/forge-canon-de-fusil.pdf

Cheers,
Wolfgang

It'd make a nice tomato stake....

See a Darne used as a murder weapon in "Coup de torchon" a terrific French movie.

Hi Ted, if you think that guy Bubba might ever catch up with you, going armed is probably a good idea. He must really hate you by now and I hear he carries a club hammer and a big ass rusty screw driver.
nial

I'm guessing old 'Bubba might have met his reward by now. The modification for using it, mounted like a punt gun on a boat or a pallet, was done a very long time ago. Ditto the extra sling swivels in addition to the mount for the factory sling.
What I can't believe is someone was still shooting it before it came to be my friend's gun. There isn't much holding the old girl closed anymore.
My friend knew better than to shoot it.

Best,
Ted

You offer to trade him one of yer Mossberg pumps for it ?

No. The Darne is a wall hanger at this point, and the Mossbergs both still work. I haven't seen any 500s that didn't work. Unlike you, I don't have a collection of broken guns, like the Scott with the cracks behind the lockplates, the hacksawed Purdey, or, whatever. I'm not interested, per say, in wall hangers at my house.
Both Mossbergs will hunt more and further than you will this year. Both are on loan as I type, one in the hands of a strapping 16 year old on his first goose hunt in Canada, and the other will be used for a class of kids who are graduating from firearms safety this weekend, and have to do the round of trap and skeet part of their class. I've asked, repeatedly, if you would send any of the crap you own to actually help out kids at class, but, you never do. Just as well, part of the testing the military does to the Mossbergs is driving a truck over them, and seeing if they still fire.
Your guns all just look like a truck drove over them, and if it happened again, we all know they wouldn't work. I question whether they work at all, and if you just use the stupid black eagle for everything, and hang out here, trying to impress people with your vast knowledge of, screw grips and the like.
Hey, how 'bout you volunteer at a safety course for kids with one of your guns? After you pass the background check (no problems there, right?) you can bring one of your projects for the kids to use, and if it works, maybe they will invite you back to help out some more.
But, I doubt it, based on what we see right here, FraNK.
You have contributed nothing to this website, ever, zip, nada, and more than one person here has pointed that out to you over the years, yet, you persist with the stupidity.
How 'bout you just stay the hell out of the posts that have actual, useful information in them, instead of bringing them down to your level, moron?

FOAD, idiot,


Ted

What could have broken that stout rising bite like that? I mean it looks like the previous owner would have had to taken the action apart and taken a hack saw or a torch to that bite.

Use as a punt gun, tired down to a steel rod on an oarlock, with outsized ammunition? I don't know. The damage is catastrophic, and not confined to just one locking mechanism, and, I think this is important, didn't kill anybody.
Both world wars did some strange things to civilian guns. People can do desperate things when they are starving. Or, cornered.

Best,
Ted

The previous owner probably cracked it when they drove it in the ground staking their tomatoes...