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Shotgunjones #392832 02/04/15 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted By: Shotgunjones
As far as Walker... which blue states turn red with his nomination?


Ummm, Wisconsin for one? Hopefully a few others who now see that "Hope and Change" was a failure and a lie.

As far as employee health care costs being borne by the consumer being the same as a tax, the consumer has a choice whether or not to buy a product, but a taxpayer is obligated or penalized regardless.

The biggest problem with the entire Health Care debate was that no one took the time to understand or ask why Health Care costs ballooned at 2 1/2 to 3 times the rate of inflation for decades.
Throwing more money at it, whether taxpayer funded or consumer driven, has not solved the problem. Costs are still rising, and the people who have been forced to buy ObamaCare are finding that they have huge deductibles and fewer services. There is no free lunch except for those who are already getting taxpayer subsidized freebies. Money has merely been moved around and working people will get less for more while non-working people will get more for less. ObamaCare is nothing but wealth AND health redistribution.


A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.

Shotgunjones #392836 02/04/15 06:47 PM
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You mean like how Tennessee voted for Gore?

Costs are rising, that's for sure. I'd like to think care is getting better, and in some ways it is. The FDA isn't helping. They insist on 'risk free' drugs and there is no such thing.

Malpractice awards drive part of the cost. The 'game' played by medical billers who have to bill an insurance company 3x to get paid x doesn't help the poor bastard who isn't part of a group and can't negotiate his billed amount. Medicare tyranny results in higher cost for those not yet 65. The reasons are there for the looking.

Another driving force is the way the doctor supply is controlled by the doctors. You can't hardly get the schooling without paying your tariff to the monopoly and they control the quantity of medical school output. Good racket.

As far as freebies, how do you want your freebies? You want unlimited write offs by the hospitals taking care of indigents, or you want the cost spread around a few underwriters? Same difference. We all pay one way or another.

As far consumer choice vs. tax... one cannot avoid purchasing the necessities of life, and all industries have employees. I don't have to buy a Cadillac, but I do need to eat and pay for shelter, etc. I also try to avoid tax in all it's forms, but like most I have only limited success.

We very much agree on the constitutional issue of the second article. That is the one upon which all the others depend.

I would, however, prefer my pro-second amendment politicians keep their hands off the rest of the document. Separation of church and state is also important to me, as is my right to protection against unwarranted search.

Some values of the far right I do not share, but I'm not a communist either.

Is there no middle ground?



"The price of good shotgunnery is constant practice" - Fred Kimble
Shotgunjones #392838 02/04/15 07:12 PM
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Blue Wisconsin has gone with Walker a couple times now, and he even weathered a recall election that was heavily funded by the DNC to take him out. He has a lot of successes and proof of ability to govern and manage. If he manages to disappoint the voters of Wisconsin, he will suffer the same fate as Gore in Tennessee.

I guess I still don't see Gold Plated Health Care as a Constitutional Right, and I don't think so many able bodied people should get free and high cost emergency care. Of course, I have always worked for my benefits and understand that liens would be placed upon my home and assets if I decided that I didn't need to pay my bills. I would like to see the able-bodied indigents somehow have to work off their freebies. We have huge infrastructure deficiencies, and there is no shortage of work that needs to be done. We don't all pay one way or another. Some perfectly able people are getting a free ride, and it needs to stop. It is not compassionate to take many hours out of your life and my life and give it to freeloaders. We all have finite lives. If you or I die prematurely because we worked hard to support freeloaders, or if a freeloader dies because they were too lazy to pay for their health care, what's the difference? I think if more able bodied people were refused free care, they would miraculously find work and the means to pay just like you and I.

You raise many interesting points about the factors which are driving these insane health care costs. Too bad our politicians haven't been looking at the problems and actually solving them instead of just moving money around and redistributing wealth. That was exactly my point. Simply throwing money at our problems has not solved any that I'm aware of.


A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.

Shotgunjones #392840 02/04/15 07:32 PM
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I'm not for freeloading either.

You may find it interesting that Michigan is going to start drug testing welfare recipients on a 'reasonable suspicion' basis. I doubt it will stand in court, but they've at least made the effort.

I think that access to affordable health care is a human right. I'm not advocating freeloading or free anything, but there is no justifiable reason that decent insurance should cost $1,000/month.

Your point that taxes are not voluntary is well taken and very valid. Taxation is a terrible power, and many times misused.

I well recall a session as a prospective juror, listening to a passionate lecture by the circuit court judge about our trial by jury system and how we don't administer our laws like many countries do - down the barrel of a gun. I resisted the urge, barely, to ask just what the hell he thought backed up a property tax if it wasn't a sheriff with a gun...


"The price of good shotgunnery is constant practice" - Fred Kimble
Shotgunjones #392847 02/04/15 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted By: Shotgunjones
....As far consumer choice vs. tax... one cannot avoid purchasing the necessities of life, and all industries have employees. I don't have to buy a Cadillac, but I do need to eat and pay for shelter....

....Separation of church and state is also important to me....

....Some values of the far right I do not share....


Sgjones, all your medical cost considerations could be fixed for free by legislation and sound regulation rather than legitimizing redistribution.

The problem with all your explanations as I see it is, it doesn't come down to whining about cost, hoops to jump through, tax-n-spending and on and on. The problem is, fixing the problem of the uninsured citizens has not been addressed, and you don't seem willing to admit it. You say, it's here to stay and we have to unbotch it, I don't think even scratches the surface of promise rhetoric.

Also, look at your 'basic' needs. It looks like you don't need a Cadillac, but apparently we do 'need' a car? Just like food and shelter, is the gore mansion and caviar covered under 'needs'.

Mostly, I was curious to ask. Apparently, separation of church-n-state is an area that you can count on the left to preserve. When exactly have you noticed a right wing elected official at any level, attempt to start or advocate for state sponsored 'religion'. Do you think we might keep mandatory work place mecca prayer breaks, airport handwash stations, and direct access by cair to this wh, to a minimum. Or, that type of religious integration is pc okay.

By the way, I hope your wife is doing well, and I'm glad that your scenario doesn't rely on ocare like it seemed to at one time.

Shotgunjones #392887 02/05/15 01:20 AM
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Thank you for your concern about my bride, Craig. She is doing fairly well, my being home now and off the road has made all the difference.

As for fixing the problem of uninsured citizens... that actually has been addressed at least to an extent in the program. There is currently no reason for anyone to not have insurance that at the very least pays providers after a huge deductible has been satisfied. The entire cost of a so called Bronze Plan is paid for nearly everybody who qualifies for a subsidy. Deductibles approach $6,000 annually.

There is a major incentive to purchase the Silver Plan options in that the insurance is actually very good, comparable to an excellent employer plan. This is, however, far from free.

The major flaw in the plan is of course the huge deductible with the Bronze scheme. This requires providers who choose to participate to in effect grant credit in the amount of the deductible to those seeking care. It's not likely they will see payment from the target audience in the event of a large bill. It does limit the exposure of a hospital to the first $6k of what may otherwise be a huge write off.

Can the system be fine tuned? Of course. It can also be replaced with something more sensible, and we certainly have the talent in this country to do that if we can all get on the same page. I'm not hopeful that we can.

Personally, my needs are modest. I do have working man's ethics, and (again) I do not seek to freeload. I agree that the problem of the huge escalating cost of health insurance has not been corrected, but I'm not above participating in a program that protects what assets and freedom I still have against an out of control health care system. I paid into the system for 40 years, with essentially no claims. Now, if I need health care why shouldn't I be able to afford it?

We'll get nowhere on the religious discussion. Suffice that I find individuals such as Huckabee and Jeb not so much a threat that a 'state' religion is in the offing as a possible source of unworkable and divisive rhetoric that will not serve progress on the national debate one bit. Freedom from religion in public policy is essential to our system, as is respect for the beliefs of others.


"The price of good shotgunnery is constant practice" - Fred Kimble
Shotgunjones #392917 02/05/15 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted By: Shotgunjones
....As for fixing the problem of uninsured citizens... that actually has been addressed at least to an extent in the program....

....the huge deductible with the Bronze scheme. This requires providers who choose to participate to in effect grant credit in the amount of the deductible to those seeking care....

....if we can all get on the same page. I'm not hopeful that we can....

....I paid into the system for 40 years, with essentially no claims. Now, if I need health care why shouldn't I be able to afford it?

We'll get nowhere on the religious discussion....


With all due respect, this is to some extent or another a freeloading mindset. Regardless of the rhetoric of insuring all the uninsured, the numbers do not support the claim.

Can anyone really hope to get affordable health care just because they 'paid in', if they dictate to facilities and providers to take the loss on the deductibles/copays, etc. The reason I asked if you were satisfied with ocare is because you're a clear supporter, but there is no answer to cost containment. You wisely budgeted for huge increases, does the plan protect joe average from cost surprises.

My understanding, I thought by law, copays and deductibles are required to be payed. Isn't that the point, to discourage use of the 'benefit'. I didn't know cheating doctors out of their pay for the work they do was written into the law, but maybe it's risky to retirement plan based on getting the bronze deductible 'waiver'.

I know religious discussions go no where. You brought it up, along with the question, 'is there no middle ground'. But, it doesn't look like we can get along. All I asked was if you knew of any politician that tried to create or advocate for a state sponsored religion. My feeling, the simple answer is no, but you elected instead to nicely justify division.

I was wonder if you noticed, bo said in the sotu lecture, that the rich needed to pay more of their 'fair' share. He said....they should be taxed on their 'accumulated' wealth, didn't mention their 'income'. As King would say, suck it up. If you paid in for forty years and bo says you do NOT deserve affordable care, then it's simple, you do not. Careful in the voting booth, good luck getting answers before hand, but any talk of villages and fairness probably means your nest egg is on the radar. It doesn't matter what your 'ethic' is, they'll justify it like supporters do of ocare.

Shotgunjones #392920 02/05/15 11:16 AM
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walker the light weight union buster up against cuomo the heavy weight populist...

i shutter to think of how that would turn out...


https://www.google.com/?trackid=sp-006#q=cuomo


Last edited by ed good; 02/05/15 11:27 AM.

keep it simple and keep it safe...
craigd #392936 02/05/15 02:09 PM
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Health care administration in the US is evolving slowly. Some of the more obvious defects have been corrected. For instance, lifetime benefit limitations have been lifted and the 'pre-existing condition' weasel out has been outlawed. Insurance is now 'portable' to some extent, and substandard plans that paid low or no benefits and yet cost real money have been banished. And no, you can't keep your usury plan even if for some reason you like it (BO isn't the only president to have been misinformed about his own administration's policies - reference Iraq 'weapons of mass destruction').

Insurance companies are evil, and require constant regulation and supervision. Medical bankruptcy is a common form of bankruptcy. What happens is that a serious illness eats all a person's assets because of underinsurance and they end up on Medicaid and welfare. We can pay as a group upfront or pay later. In either case, we pay.

Deductibles must be paid, in the same way that mortgage contracts must be paid. But you can't get blood from a turnip. Cost containment as far as insurance cost in recent years has trended to these high deductible policies. Due to the number of write offs, the cost of health care goes up to cover the losses. It's an endless cycle.

BO is a communist, as is Pelosi. I'm well aware of that. History does show that the largest tax increase in history was signed into law by Bush the First. The highest marginal tax rates were increased the most. Ironically, these rates were temporarily suspended during the administration of Bush the Second and thereafter referred to as the 'Bush tax cuts'. The only thing new was the 10% bracket and that has stayed.

The system still sucks. I didn't vote for anyone who helped pass ACA, I'm just trying to live with it.

As far as being entitled to affordable insurance after having been a working drone for 40 years and paying in... yes, I do feel that way. All I'm asking for is a policy that costs less than 10% of my meager gross. Is that unreasonable? Do high earners who have paid SSA tax refuse the distribution after retirement on moral grounds? The difference is an annual policy vs. a lifetime shakedown. Health insurance is a social system just like SSA and lifetime administration seems the obvious way to go... just skip the pyramid scheme.

The 'Gold' plan I bought last year from BCBS of MI went up by $100/month for this year. Total plan cost increased by 17%. The regulators approved that. Clearly, cost containment so far is a giant failure. I instead bought a Silver HMO plan, which is obviously what they wanted me to do.

The only thing worse than the health care system administration is the political system trying to sort it out. Both extreme positions shouting "you're an assbag" at each other isn't real productive.








"The price of good shotgunnery is constant practice" - Fred Kimble
Shotgunjones #392957 02/05/15 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted By: Shotgunjones
You mean like how Tennessee voted for Gore?



I didn't vote for the scum bag.

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