doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Model 1894 Remington Year of production and grade

I am looking at a Model 1894 sN: 108637. Is their a website to check year of production by serial number? Further, how do you determine grade of model 1894 guns????
Tom

From the Remington site:
Description: Remington's first hammerless double barrel shotgun
Introduction Year: 1894
Year Discontinued: 1910
Total Production: 42,000 +/-
Designer/Inventor: Remington Arms
Action Type: Break action
Caliber/Gauge: 10, 12, 16 gauge
Serial Number Blocks: 100,000 – 142,000
# of Grades Offered: A, B, C, D, E, and Special Trap
Variations: Available with or without automatic ejectors
Available with ordnance steel or Damascus barrels

http://www.wisnersinc.com/explodedviews/Rem_1894.htm

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...df792#Post31150

Pete

PETE,
THANKS FOR THE INFO! ANOTHER QUESTION SHOULD THE 1894 REM. HAVE A "P" IN THE SERIAL NUMBER? ALSO WHERE IS THE GRADE INDICATED ON THE GUN?
TOM

A grade is the lowest with no engraving
B grade has a small amount of engraving (a little more than a PH Parker)
C grade (a little less engraving than a GH Parker.
D grade like a BH Parker
E grade like an AH Parker.
F grade a little less than a B grade Remington, this is a trap gun with steel barrels and generally a higher comb.

Here are some pics of different grades.

The bottom of a couple A grade guns



A couple B grades



A couple of C grades



A very nice E grade

The engraving on the E grade is very nice. If you ever want to sell that gun....

Pete

Pete,
I was runner up bidder on that gun. My final bid was 7k the winning bid was the next one. I think it was a good deal but I couldnt afford any more. It needed some restoration but was solid. Ive never seen a D or E that had substandard engraving.
Ross

The P was the Remington stock code for Model 1894s. Model 1900s often have a Q, their stock code. According to the serial number table in Semmer's book, 108,xxx would be in 1898 -- 106,917 to 110,895.

Ross,

The more I thought about those geese, the more I realized they seemed familiar.

In Elliot's book on Lefever, pp 226 & 85, there is a Thousand Dollar Grade that according to the serial numbers was likely produced around 1896. The engraving is very similiar.
I am hardly an expert, but it appears to me to be by the same hand.
I know that in 1890 Albert E. Spangler and his brother Milton were engravers working for Lefever. He did several high grade Lefevers.
Other engravers in the Lefever shop at the time include Jacob Glahn & sons, as well as Kornbrath.

I wonder if any of them worked for Remington?

Pete

Researcher,
Thanks for your input regarding serial numbers and years of manufacture. Another question please.....based on my serial number provided is this likely to be a 2 3/4 inch chambered gun or is it shorter? The gun appears to be ordnance steel....is that logical for the year of manufacture?
Tom

By and large the 12-gauge Remington Hammerless Doubles appear to be chambered 2 5/8 inches. A very few graded trap or Pigeon guns may have left Ilion chambered for longer shells, but likely not many. My Father shot a boxcar load of factory 2 3/4 inch shells thru his 1896-vintage Damascus barrel AE-Grade from the 1940s to the 1980s with no ill effects!!

Ordnance Steel would be stamped (A- or B-Grade) or engraved (higher grades)on the top of each barrel if it was Ordnance Steel. The cheaper blued Remington Steel offered on A- or AE-Grades wasn't marked. I think the steel barrels were first offered in the April 1897 catalogue.

A hang tag of 1899 vintage just states the the gun was targetted with 3 1/2 drachms F.G. Powder and 1 1/4 ounces of #8 chilled shot, but doesn't mention the shell or its length. A 1908 vintage hang tag states the gun was targetted with a UMC Nitro Club shell, 2 5/8 inches in length, loaded with 24 grains of Infallible and 1 1/4 ounces of #8 chilled shot.

On the other hand, the Remington paper on their Autoloading Gun from the very get go in 1905 states that it is made for 2 3/4 inch shells.

A hard working farmer's gun - in all it's rustic glory!

Tom Regal...My guess would be about 1899 for the 1894 you're looking at....Hope you don't mind, while we're on the subject of dating 1894's, I would like to add another '94 dating question..Has anyone figured out what year Remington switched the production of the 1894 (and 1900)to the improved lock system? So far the lowest serial number with the improved lock that I have found is 136,000 range for the '94, and 367,000 range for the 1900. If a date could be agreed upon as the cut-off for the old lock system, then any with the improved lock could be considered post 1906 (guessing)...at a glance...Charlie didn't know...and Art McKee isn't saying...

I know we had a thread on this in the past but I could not find it in search. Can you tell me how to determine if I have an improved lock system?

Sorry, my camera is loaned out at the moment, but I'll post pictures later for those who don't have Rem doubles to look at while following this thread...The improved system can be spotted across the isle at a gunshow by simply noting the distance between the sear lever axel and the stock face. On the regular lock the distance is about 1/8 inch...on the improved lock, the distance is about 1/4 inch, giving the sear lever a greater mechanical advantage. The parts are not interchangable of course and I've also noted differences in the stock face, perhaps the improved '94 has a taller action for more strength like Trap Grade Smiths...

I couldn't wait for camera, so I've tried to point it out using photo from this thread...hope this works

Thanks for the info Robert. I wanted to respond to your post above but did not know which lock I have. My 127,xxx has the standard lock.

Does the "improved lock" equate to the change from the firingpin being integral with the hammer or being separate? In the parts lists in my catalogues through 1906 the hammers with the integral firing pin are shown. I don't have anything for 1907, but the 1908 and 1909 show the separate firing pins.

Could someone be so kind as to look in Semmer's book and tell me what Remington called the damascus on 1894 E/D Grades? Were the B Grades also "Oxford" like the A Grades?

yes, I think so...the separate firing pins are part of the improved lock system, at least for the '94...you'll have to give me some time to say for the 1900...But who can tell exactly when each improvement was incorporated...I have many more questions than answers...were all improved lock '94's four bite?... are all improved 1900's two bite? Do the two bite, three bite, and four bite lock-ups coincide with other keystone changes? All of these variations should be considered when dating a Rem SxS...I don't have Semmer's book, are these topics covered? Was this info discussed here, in the past, and I missed it?
.
One thing is for sure, Remington SxSs are one of the most under valued doubles on the market...

Dave,
I went out and checked nine of my Remingtons and they are about half and half integral pins/floating pins. All of the floating ones were on what Robert calls the improved lock. All of the integral pin guns were on the "standard lock". Thanks for the tip Robert. Im always amazed at what other people notice. I examined my two C grades side by side, compared them to each other and never noticed the different pin position that Robert pointed out or that the ARMS engraved on the older gun was engraved AMRS which Researcher pointed out.
I will look at the serial numbers on my guns and see what the different locks are.
Ross/Nebraska

I've owned 2 bite, 3 bite, and 4 bite lock-ups. Of course the 4 bite is just a 3 bite split in two [we're talking hammerless only]. Are there any other variations? (other than the Greener cross bolt gun pictured in the DGJ)?
.
Ross, WOW...half are improved...that's great considering that the improved models were only manufactured during the last 4? years of production (of 16?).... I'll bet that just knowing of the improved '94s will change which will be the last to go when you do sell...I'll bet just knowing will influence how far you're willing to go on future purchases.
.
Perhaps these improvements were in response to the lightning fast lock speed of the Flues model that had just made its debut c1907...there's no denying that the Flues model drove Remington right out of the SxS business...I would love to hear if someone has opposing views...Bob Chambers, Buffalo NY

Rev,

The Damascus on the Remingtons above A-Grade varied at the customer's request. I have a fairly early BE-Grade that has the Damascus identified as "Chain J." on the Remington salesman's sample. The normal for the A-/AE-Grades seems to be "Oxford 2 S.J." but Charlie shows an AE-Grade with "Peiper P."

Dave

Robert,

I doubt the Flues had anything to do with Remington dropping break action guns. They had the rights to the U.S. manufacture of the Browning designed autoloading gun, and could see what the future held. Already in 1907, the Grand American Handicap was won by an amatuer, J.J. Blanks, from Trezevant, TN, with a Remington Autoloading Gun.

I view improved 94's and 1900's in much the same way as the Ithaca Depression era Star models...Ithaca doubles made around the time of the Depression sometimes received extra fit and finish by employees who were struggling to hold on to their jobs. The last few years of the Remington double line was under the same dark cloud and employees were also struggling to hold on their jobs. Ithaca is only about 100 miles away from Ilion, surely there was some degree of awareness that many were about to lose their jobs to their neighbors. Stock makers and machinists could be used in the Rem 1911 shotgun line but double gun specialists had some serious reckoning to do. Keep in mind that while they were contemplating, they were filing and fitting the Improved Models. The Improved Model was an attempt, by Remington, to maintain their market share.

Researcher,..I didn't see your last postings until I posted my last response...

Thanks Dave, any idea about the name of the very high grade damascus used on E and D Grade guns? I've got pics on the PictureTrail but don't know how to label them.

Hey Researcher, I'm not an expert on Remington doubles...I like them...I'm interested in the (still uncharted) evolution of the'94s...but I am certainly no expert. If I speak with conviction, of course it doesn't mean I can't be wrong. My wife will tell you that I'm wrong most of the time. I appreciate that you base your hard earned responses on evidence rather than conjecture. I hope that you find the exchange to be educational. It would be wrong of you or I to alter our observations and records to match up with anyone elses without contrary evidence or reasonble plausibility. If your data points in some other direction, please say so.

I checked my guns tonight and out of nine of them 3 were the improved pattern. The lowest number I have in the improved style is P132XXX 12ga CEO. The highest number I have in the standard style is 125XXX CE Damascus 12ga.

Rev,

The Damascus barrels on the EE-Grade Remington you show in your Damascus picture trail is the pattern they called "Peiper P". The BE-Grade you show appears to me to have the "Oxford 4.S.J." barrels. The Remington Arms Co. catalogues are pretty oblique about the Damascus on their hammerless doubles --

KD-/KED-Grade -- Damascus

A-/AE-Grade -- Two-stripe Damascus

B-/BE-Grade -- Three-stripe Damascus, some mid-period catalogues say Fine three-stripe Damascus

C-/CE-Grade -- Finer Damascus

D-/DE-Grade -- Very fine Damascus, later catalogues say Extra fine Damscus

E-/EE-Grade -- Finest Damascus

Robert,

It is all purely conjecture. I don't have any Remington Arms Co. board notes to prove anything! However, as early as 1905-06 Remington Arms Co. was publishing separate catalogues that just covered their autoloaders and/or repeaters, while I've neaver seen or heard of a separate catalogue just for the doubles! On February 3, 1910, M. Hartley Company, the owner of both Remington Arms Co. and UMC sold out their entire stock of break action guns on hand and in process to Norvell-Shapleigh Hardware Co. of StLouis, Missouri. The 1910 Remington Arms Co. catalogue doesn't show any doubles.

Thanks Dave and that grading system is very similar to what LC Smith used. We may come to a dead end trying to put specific names on gunmaker's damascus patterns. As the 76' AR article makes clear, there were many grades of Bernard, Boston, Oxford, 'Crolle', etc. AND different barrel makers, with different patterns, using the same name ('Bernard', etc.)

...when your looking at at serial no 132790 and it has separate firing pins (improved lock), there is no conjecture there...as opposed to some windbag saying he saw one a few years ago at a gunshow but can't remember who had it...
So what did Shapleigh Hardware do with those guns? My guess is they spilled them on the market as regular Remington guns...
.
reb87,
My highest standard '94 is 125283
... lowest improved '94 is 132790
.......(7500 numbers apart)
.
My highest standard 1900 is 324925
....lowest improved 1900 is 367479
....... (42500 numbers apart)
.
Perhaps you or someone else will have examples that fall between this starting point

OK...I just got Remington's unofficial view on what brought about the decision to cease their SxS shotgun production...I asked the question out of context so that there would be no chance of imparting my views first. The answer givin was "Because of the competition from Ithaca"...
.
You can reject the whole notion that the Flues model had any effect on the US double shotgun market, but now that I've let the improved lock 94's out of the bottle, you may never get them back in.
.
Perhaps factory drawings will shed some light on the improved lock system...names..dates...increased lock speeds..I'll try to look into it
.
There is so much uncharted information on Remington doubles out there that someone could specialize in researching them...starting with German Flatts (near Ilion)

Robert,
I have an 1894 BE #132102 and it is the standard action as pictured. According to Semmer's book, my gun and your lowest improved gun(#132790) were both built in 1905. Hope this is of interest to you. I'd just like to add that Semmer's book is worth every penny to Remington double addicts as are his DGJ articles. I don't own any 1900's to compare, but your guns date as 1902 and 1907 according to Charles.

That's interesting, considering Remington didn't leave the double barrel market for long, introducing the M32 down the road, but how did adding the spacing creat a lock time equal to Ithaca's formidable Flues.
All the best

R.R....excellent...let me see if I have this correct...132102 is a standard lock, while 132790 has the improved lock..that's only 688 numbers apart...Reb87 has one in the 132,000 range, maybe he will be able to close the gap if his is between 132102 & 132790..But thanks to RR, we can assume for the moment that the improved lock was incorporated somwhere in the 132,000 range...It will be interesting to see if the 1900 switched over in the same year as the '94
.
t1958...Remington was still patenting SxS items in the 1970's...and...Remington never came close to achieving the Flues lock time of 1/625 of a second, in fact the Flues line wasn't operational at that moment...Remington was still facing stiff competition from the Ithaca's transitional models, the Lewis and the Manier. Since the very first days of wing shooting, lock time was on the tongues of shooters, starting with matchlocks. Matchlocks and flintlocks have more hang time than lock time and it became very ingrained in the minds of the shooting sportsman. It may not have completely left yet.
.
Thanks to all for contributing to the further understanding of this venerable shotgun.

Here is P132280 with the "improved lock."



In Model 1900s I have Q359662 which has the "improved lock."

Thanks Researcher..you and R.R. have really narrowed down the the 94 serials to within 178 numbers apart...I wonder if there will be any subtle differences in the earliest improved lock guns....transitional guns maybe...or unusual action flats and barrel markings maybe...does 132280 have unusual or extra markings?
.
R.R....Does Semmers book say what serial range was used on the 1900 model during 1905? (assuming that 1905 is correct for the 132,000 range for the 1894)...
.
OK...I'll try to recap this for the readers to know if their Remingtons are within these serial ranges
.
Lowest improved lock 1894 is 132280
Highest standard lock 1894 is 132102
................numbers apart........178
.
Lowest improved lock 1900 is 359662
Highest standard lock 1900 is 324925
...............numbers apart......34737

Robert,
Semmer's has 1894(1905) as 131264-133042,
1900(1905) as 350208-354620.
I glanced around at some 1900's online and found a 352K and a 353K serial numbered gun, both with improved locks. Also found a 350K gun with standard locks... which would seem to prove a mid-1905 changeover as well as Researcher's and my gun.
Of course, I did find an oddity.
Gun #132037 is a CEO Pigeon Trap and has the improved lock.
Perhaps the higher graded guns started getting the new frames first while the lower grades used up the standard.
It will be interesting to hear where Ross' 132k gun falls if he checks back in.

What month was that issue?

Pete

Pete: April, 1976 (and just sent you a copy)

R.R.,
You have better perspective than I. I am in a state of double barrel information-overload...and, I'm not really a Remington collector, so I've probably missed out on a lot of info you Remington collectors take for granted. Without you and Researcher, this thread would have stalled
.
Would you classify that oddity as a transitional gun?
.
I'm really looking forward to whatever guns turn up at the crossroads...Thanks again for taking a personal interest

Robert,

We are now into the realm of overlap. I was reviewing Semmer last night, and on pages 222 and 223 he shows a rather unusual CEO-Grade Pigeon Gun with the "improved lock" and serial number 132037. Charles also did an article on this Pigeon Gun in The Double Gun Journal, Volume Five, Issue 2, Page 138.

I passed on that gun at a Richmond, Virginia, gun show years ago because to my eye it was obviously restocked. My only other opportunity at a Remington Pigeon Gun was also many years ago at a Pikesville, Maryland, gun show where "The Dutchman" had a well used straight grip DEO-Grade Pigeon Gun, but it had been fitted with an aftermarket safety, so I passed again. That gun must have disappeared into someones gun safe, as I've not seen it surface again.

Dave

My CEO improved 94 is serial number 132328

Well further examination reveals that the hammer travels the same distance on the improved model, so no additional lock speed there...where the improvement really shows, is the greater mechanical advantage given by both lengthening the lever and shortening the sear at the same time. Trigger pulls of the standard and improved lock guns must be markedly different. BTW...hammer toe distance and cocking lever distances remain the same in both models.


Shown in this way, it's easy to see which sear lever offers more mechanical advantage

The fact that all the other dimensions are the same means that the improved sear could very easily be used with the old style hammer with integrel firing pins...I haven't seen one like this, but I guess it's possible

I'm confused here. I have what I thought was an 1894 with a Damascus barrel. It is not engraved and has a 322,xxx serial #. Is it a 1900 or an 1894?

drduc,
The 1900 is in the 300000 serial number range, the 1894 is in the 100000 range. The 1900 forend is removed by pulling it off, the 1894 is removed by pushing the button on the end and then removing the forend. Here is a pic of a 1894 forend.

Thanks for the clarification.

I just pulled them all out of the safe, and five have the "improved lock" and two the "standard lock." All five with the "improved lock" have concave ribs, while the two with the "standard lock have the high flat ribs. Both guns with the "standard lock" have the raised safety slide, while the two earliest "improved lock" guns also have the raised safety slide. The late 1906, the 1907, and the 1909 guns have the dished out safety slide.

Here are three variations --

Top -- "standard lock" -- flat rib -- raised safety -- 1895

Middle -- "improved lock" -- concave rib -- raised safety -- early 1906

Bottom -- "improved lock" -- concave rib -- dished safety -- late 1907



And, for Rev here is the Chain J. Damascus on the 1895 BE-Grade and its stock.

I will have to look at my guns again, I didnt think about the rib and saftey.
Thanks for the pics Ive a LC Smith 3E and Lefever with Chain Damascus barrels but hadnt seen them on a Remington.


I do need to post some pics of one of my B grades with the buttplate off. Stamped into the wood is the owners name city state and date. It is a year older than Semmers book says it is. From memory the Semmer book says the serial number range is about half way into 1898 but the date stamped into the buttstock is mid 1897. Ill look tonight and post pics.

I have always associated that dished out safety with the model 1900 only, where the word SAFE is stamped rather than engraved which was a cost cutting measure (as pictured below)


For whatever it's worth, Art McKee referred to the safeties as checkered or grooved as another way to quickly differ between the 1900 and 1894...Your grooved safety is the first I've seen on a 94...I assumed that the grooved safety was yet another cost cutting measure for the model 1900 as is the straight forend face as opposed to the curved forend face of the 1894

Just thumbing thru Semmer again, the dished safety slides seem to begin appearing in the high 135xxx range, and there seem to be plenty on C, D, and E quality guns. My Father had a 16-gauge AE-Grade, P136036, that had the dished safety and he never liked it as well as the raised safety on his old 1896 AE-Grade 12-gauge. P136036 was stolen out of his house in Seattle along with two Winchester Model 67 .22s in the early 1980s, in case anyone runs into it.

Semmer shows some early 1900s that have flat ribs and the raised safety.

Looking thru my Remington Arms Co. catalogues, from 1894 thru the 1904-5 catalogues the text always states "flat matted rib." But, up thru 1901 a "hollow rib" is available to order on BE-grade and above. From 1902 thru the 1904-5 the "hollow rib" is only offered to order on C- and above. From 1906 on the text states "concave rib, matted." Anyone have one of these 1894 to 1905 "hollow ribs"? Is a hollow rib the same as a concave rib?

Well it's news to me...thank you...It shows you how few graded Remingtons I've owned...I better send for Semmers book...
.
I've noticed people interchange hollow and concave ...and I've seen drawings of a raised (flat on top) hollow ribs in European catalogs..based on how much my 94s weigh, I would say that Remington meant concave
.
132437 is also a C Grade (improved lock)... two C Grades exactly 400 numbers apart?...037 and 437...I don't have 132437, just the butt stock with the serial number clearly marked...along with WHD's initials...

Well, just to drag this out a little longer, as long as I had them out of the safe I decided to break them down, run a patch thru the bores and lube the hinges. I noticed another variation, this time in the forearm loops.

Early guns have a lovely reinforced loop with a single hook --



Mid period guns still have the reinforcement but an added spur which seems to force the forearm back against the hinge.



Finally, guns above about 133,xxx have lost the reinforcing feature --

Here is a pic of my 1894 with the buttplate off. It is serial number 107242 B grade 12ga. According to Semmers book it is in the 1898 serial range of 106917-110895. It is stamped September 20 1897. If that is when the owner received it then it was built before that date.

Here are the features on my guns. Dates are from Semmer


107242 (1898)B Damascus 12ga Standard Lock, flat rib, raised safety, two screw bottom tang, reinforced forend lug with spur.

112228 (1899)A Damascus 12ga " "

116128 (1899)AE Damascus 12ga " "

118976 (1900)B Damascus 10ga " "

125336 (1902)CE Damascus 12ga " "

P132328 (1905)CEO 12ga Improved lock " "

133281 (1906)FE Trap barrels only Concave Rib, lug not reinforced

133930 (1906)FE 12ga Improved lock,Concave Rib,Raised Safety, lug not reinforced, two screw bottom tang.

138123 (1910)AE Damascus 12ga on 16ga frame, Improved lock,concave rib,dished out safety,lug not reinforced, one screw bottom tang

I found only a couple other differences on my guns. The guns before 125336 have a taller extractor catch (joint check)




The cocking levers on 138123 are very pointed while the rest of my guns are blunt on the end. Back action is 138123

Here are some pics showing the difference between the 16ga frame and 12ga frame. Notice the difference in the ejector rails on the barrel extensions. 112228 is a 12ga on 12ga frame, 138123 is 12ga on 16ga frame.



The two actions lined up at the top edges. The edges of the small frame gun trigger plate are at the edge of the reciever bottom, the large frame gun has around 1/8 inch material between the edge of the plate and receiver.

Here is the early 107242 (1898) B grade with the split lug compared to 112228 (1899) the more typical lugs found on 1894 guns. I want to apoligize for the large pics, I havent figured out how to get them smaller and retain detail.

I prefer the dished out safety as it gives more traction to your thumb.

Hi Researcher All of my Remington model 1894's AR and AER grade's that have Remington steel barrel's on them are marked on top of both barrels Remington, in the same place as the one's that are Ordnance and are marked as Ordnance. I am on vacation and just now saw this post.

The only Remington Steel barreled gun I have is my FE Trap Gun and its barrels are not marked as to steel type. The only AER-Grade I've recorded in my notes is a 10-gauge, serial number 110,209 that Michael Murphy & Son had a few years back, and the unusual thing about it was that it had the big single barrel lug like often seen on late K-/KE-Grades, like the front barrels in this picture.

first post here guys, i know i am bumping an old thread, but i though some of you might find this info interesting/helpful.

I just purchsed my first 1894 today, i believe it is a CEO. there is a C on the bottom of the barrels, an E - and the ejectors work, but the next letter is what looks like a Y. it does have ordinance steel barrels.

anyway, this gun has the floating pins/improved lock and the serial is 132452, this narrows the gap between the highest standard lock and the improved to 350 guns, that almost cuts the previous gap in half!

Dave, can you tell me if this gun has the Imp. lock or not. I'm not sure what to look for. You may need to see a better angle. I beleive it to be the Non Imp lock type. #111525


For some reason all of the pics on this thread except Dave's are not coming up. Just little red X's

Resurrecting an old thread I found.

Is anyone still collecting data on serial numbers of 1894�s that have the standard and improved lock?

On p.2 the difference in spacing is discussed. The lowest serial number with the improved lock discussed in the thread is 132037, which is a CEO Live Bird Gun discussed also in Semmer�s book on p.214-15 and pics on p.222-23 which book I have in my library.

My 1894 is also a CEO Live Bird Gun yet, serial is 132034.
Hope this helps.

I have 132037. Since the serial numbers are so close, were they part of a batch of no safety pigeon guns made at the same time? Have not seen too many around. I wonder how many were made?

Thanks

Thanks.

Here a decade plus later I'm finding a bit of overlap. I've recorded an early-style action 16-gauge in the high 1320xx range.

If they are all no safety pigeon guns it would indeed. Pigeons should make themselves scarce on that day!

I have a BE grade 16 GA SN 132084. It has the early style action and also has a flat rib and a raised safety. The barrels are 27" and it weighs in at 6 pounds 6.2 ounces.