doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Help identifyng maker. (British Pinfire)

This Samuel Ebrel of Shrewsbury 12 Bore is in good enough condition to fire but like you I am a UK resident and I keep it off ticket and as you say if we use pinfires they have to go on our shotgun licence. I do find this extremely frustrating just to be able to use the gun a couple of times a year so like me the gun has given up smoking permanently. Just one thing that might be of interest the Damascus barrels still have the remains of its �Russet Browning� an extremely thick rust layer which was saturated with mixtures containing Tallow, Lard, amongst other things popular with the UK west coast Wild Fowlers. Though I do think the hammers are way out of proportion especially when you see other maker�s pinfires.

Demon, there are only two London George Smith's on the IGC database:

Name George Smith
Address1 Upper King Street
Address2 New Norfolk Street
City/Town London
Country United Kingdom
Trade Gunmaker
Dates 1841-1848
Notes
Recorded in the 1841 Census aged 30 in Upper King Street, he was next recorded in 1848 in New Norfolk Street. No further record.

And perhaps a more likely candidate for your gun:

Name George E Smith
Other Names George Smith & Co
Address1 40 Davies Street
Address2 16 Davies Street
Address3 104 New Bond Street
Address4 82 New Bond Street
Address5 10 Davies Street
Address6 253 Oxford Street
Address7 3 Park Lane
City/Town London
Country United Kingdom
Trade Gun Dealer
Other Address 110 Mount Street; 3 Angel Court; 4 Stafford Street; 13 King Street; 153 Piccadilly
Dates 1859-1897
Notes
George Smith established his business at 40 Davies Street in 1859. In 1863/3 he made gun No. 286 which is in the Royal collection. In 1866 he moved to 16 Davies Street and in 1867 to 104 New Bond Street. In 1869 he moved to 82 New Bond Street, but in 1870 he moved to 10 Davies Street. In 1871 he moved to 253 Oxford Street, and in 1874 he was recorded at 3 Park Lane. In 1885 he was at 110 Mount Street and in 1888 at 3 Angel Court, King Street. In 1891 he was at 4 Stafford Street and in 1896 at 13 King Street. In 1897 the name of the firm was changed to George Smith & Co, and he was recorded at 153 Piccadilly but closed later in 1897.

George Smith must have been a maker of best quality guns but he seems to have taken on property leases probably inexpensive because they had a short time to run. No other gun maker in the whole of the England occupied so many premises, 12 in less than 40 years.

Tim

I have had a really bad day and so finally nailing down this maker has birghtened my mood considerably! Thankyou very much for finding this information for me its very interesting.

While certainly not a best gun, the lock inletting is of very high quality compared to other back actions i have in my small collection. And the engraving is good coverage and was probably very nice in its day; as i mentioned before sadly now worn. Since he set up in 1859 and number 286 was 1863 i would imagine number 110 / 113 is a very early gun of his.

Damascus - Interesting piece, i have a back action hammer gun by ebral of shrewsbery, it is very barrel heavy, twist damascus ( just relaid the ribs and re browning ) one bore marked choked. I have come to the conclusion that it to was probably used a a duck or goose gun. Yours is a lovely gun that stock is beautifull honey/black marble. I have seen other guns come up in auctions with the similar hammers to that with that bulbous appearance and they have been described as replacements; perhaps those are non original any ideas?

Pictures of the other pinfire i have can be seen here ( just for your own interest ) http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=381012&page=2

Deamon I bid for the gun some thirty five years ago at a farm winding up sale near Whitchurch which is not far from Shrewsbury, included with the gun were a couple of boxes of pinfire black powder cartridges they all went up in smoke not long after I purchased the gun enjoyable all the same, I wish knew then what I know now they were a very valuable commodity. Somehow the point of the stocks comb looked as if it had been intentionally damaged how or why I have no idea but I am sure it lowered the price, in the photograph you can see the timber that has been let in though in normal lighting it is not half as noticeable. As for the hammers I do feel that they are original and not replacement castings because they fit so well and the engraving has been done by the same hand. Also I can�t see the owner paying good money to have such a pair of ugly duckling hammers as aftermarket replacements but you never know!!!

I see your point, on second thoughts, modern casting methods have only recently been able to cast in engraving to any degree, so unless the replacement was recent i would have to agree, that they are likely original.

Perhaps later on in the season i might put one of my pinfires on ticket, i have a pipe dream of the spaniel putting up a pheasant and dropping it with the pinfire. Pipe dream because it relies on myself, the pinfire, and the spaniel to work together.

If i put it on ticket i would likely alter the barrels to accept a modern rimmed cartridge just to make it easier to load for. Best method i have heard of doing it is to alter the barrels to accept a modern rim, punch the primer out of a modern shell. counter sink the brass so a spent .22 casing can be super glued in. Then drill a hole through for the pin. Then you can place your percussion cap in the spent .22 casing and arange your pin to contact. Its not the most straight forward but it does create a cartridge that you can re load multiple times.

Kranks is not so far from me but i would rather not be at the mercy of �6 a piece for some brass.

The way around the antique pin-fire conundrum is not to actually own it. Give it the wife and then borrow it when you want to use it. So long as you have your shotgun certificate you are covered and so long as you hand it back within the 72 hour deadline. I've put that question to one or two and no one can see anything illegal in the exercise. Might be worth running it past BASC and see what their take is on the idea.

Making pin-fire cartridges is covered in Geoffrey Boothroyd's book The Shotgun. History and Development pages 181-3. The idea was from a late friend Derek Fearn of Catton Gunsmiths. Access to a lathe to make the percussion cap inserts which then fit into a regular plastic cartridge case. He used to use compression formed Winchester cases with the heads peeled off. Lagopus.....

I have a really good local FEO; infact as far as i know we are really lucky to have a really knowlegdeable and understanding firearms dept here so i will run it by them and also BASC. ( if i do i'll post their verdict on here )

In theory there is NO reason i can see why your idea would be illegal. Its setting the premise that the owner owns it under the section 58 exemption and it has been lent to you as an SGC holder to use, for less than 72 hours so it doesnt need to be formally written on to your ticket.

Spot on. I don't think they will like the idea though. Still, we don't make the laws; just comply with them. Lagopus.....

You are probably right!

I'm quite a fan of the way the law works in the UK. Americans would never understand it but they are on an entirely different socio-political continent.

Demonwolf444,
Would you please expand on what it is about UK gun laws that makes you a "fan?"