doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Spanish Gun Market. What is your input?

Value/price is the answer, as noted above. Widely known that Spanish guns lose significantly on the used market.

Couple that with rising prices, and it's a non-starter...lots of others, better guns, that can be bought for similar money or just a bit more.

The final nail here is the tighter U.S. economy. No matter the fairy dust coming from the administration about growth, the average American family is pretty tight these days. A nice gun is a luxury; Spanish guns are luxury items of the middle class that's living much lower on the hog.

The AYA two barrel set I posted above was made in 1983. Thirty years ago it would have sold new for around $5,000. I think many on this forum could have afforded to buy it then although it may have been a bit of a financial stretch.
How many here can or would want to shell out $14,000 for this set today? Other factors regarding current firearms interest aside the whole economic picture from what I see has changed radically in the last decade. Other than for the very well to do I believe the upper end new double market will continue to constrict as the potential client base continues to decline.
Jim

John--

You have always been kind enough to answer my questions, so I'll return the courtesy and attempt to answer yours. But, be warned, as far as the value of my response--I'm just a occasional gun purchaser and not an expert.

My potential loss on resale doesn't bother me, though I'd be tempted by a bargain on something sold ANIB (like Hoof's purchase) that somebody else has taken a hit on. There is the perception of a 'golden age of Spanish gunmaking' that ended when the troubles began in 2008, so anybody looking for 'the next great thing' may be looking to Anatolian Turkey rather the Basque region of Spain (and people who buy luxury goods are always looking for the next great thing--it's a status marker). I'm personally a little put off by some the quality issues that I've heard about Spanish guns having in the last four or five years. Stories of retiring craftsmen, uneven production, etc., even if it's just the internet rumor mill, make me nervous. Michael McIntosh did so much to popularize and validate the idea of a Spanish best, and he's dead--there's no bringing him back to life. The value proposition that other posters have mentioned may have gotten out of whack--nobody is repeating McIntosh's mantra of 90% of a London gun for 10% of the price anymore. The numbers don't work. And finally, those beautiful Spanish guns were never really for the 1% (or for the middle class, for that matter). They appealed to high salaried professionals and executives and the business owners who populated the next 9% or so. Like driving German sheet metal or taking the right kind of vacation, they were delightful for their own sake, and offered a kind of status currency. But, make no mistake, those customers are very money conscious. And that crowd is quite dazed and confused, these days.

Anyhow, those are just random thoughts. It's also possible, I suppose, that there is nothing wrong with the guns or the market, and the problem lies in how the guns are being sold--i.e., the distribution channel has failed and a new sales model needs to be developed.

I don't know if all of that is just disorganized drivel, or if some small part of it is useful. Good luck with your chore.

at this moment there are about 1100 sxs shotguns for sale on gunbroker with starting bids of $1000 or more. there are no bids. i have never seen the market for better guns to be this poor.

I think the answer lies in these four questions:

1. Each year, how many hunters and/or target shooters decide to become a "vintage style" double gun shooter for the first time?

2. Each year, how many current double gun owners decide to add another "vintage style" double gun to their safe without selling/trading one in exchange?

3. Each year, how many vintage double guns actually become unusable and are retired?

4. Each year, how many new "vintage style" double guns are made?

I don't know the numbers, but the current double gun market run has been going on for about 30 years, and I would guess that supply has more than caught up with demand - pricing certainly would indicate that.

I think the issue is particularly tough for the Spanish makers, because target shooting is the one area that continues to grow, at least according to the NSSF, and they do not sell target guns in the US. As has been alluded to by others, hunting upland birds with light sxs is not a growing market segment.

Of all of the hunters and shooters I know, I would estimate that maybe 20% have any interest in owning or shooting a "vintage style" double gun. The guys I hunt with the most think a Beretta OU is more than adequate for their needs - and their choice is not limited by their pocketbooks. They would would characterize it as picking an Acura over a Alfa Romeo.

Sidelock OUs for target or hunting might be an area worth exploring - other than CSMC A10s, there are no options available for less than $25k new. But they would have to be based on the Woodward/Boss designs, and not the Merkel double under lump that AyA has used in the past.

And since you asked, my only experience ordering a custom mid-range Spanish sxs sidelock ended badly, as the gun was not well made. Fortunately, the importer agreed to take it back, but that was after a long wait for the gun (including several missed deadlines that had been agreed upon in advance) and a fair amount of kibitzing to get things worked out. The importer probably should not have sent it to me, but the maker should not have shipped the gun in the first place.

Purely IMO, several reasons:

The primary market for Spanish SxS shotguns here in the UA has been the middle class. The low to mid middle class favored the less expensive box lock guns while the mid to upper middle class favored side lock guns. The middle class has been especially hard hit by the �recession� (And I think the term depression is more accurate), and is having a hard time buying groceries and gasoline, much less SxS shotguns.

The Spanish gun makers, with their own set of problems, have needed to raise prices and drop the low end (�affordable�) models of shotguns. Add together more expensive guns and a market with less money and fewer sales are the natural result.

Another, wild card, factor has been the Spanish tax guns. About six, seven, years ago The Spanish government created a tax on the ownership of shotguns. It was a yearly tax, per gun. The result was thousands upon thousands of used shotguns were either sold to local gun shops or just turned into the Civil Guard. US importers (most notably CAI) bought and brought into the USA several thousand of these guns. Quality and condition was all over the place, but I was buying the equivalent of AyA No 1 or Ugartechea model 75 side locks shotguns, in VG to EX condition, for under $600 on Gun Broker. I was also buying, from gun shops in Spain, the equivalent of Garbi model 200 and Grulla Royal for between 1500 � 2500 Euro.

In short, that flood of tax guns killed the market for new Spanish SxS shotguns of all grades. Two years ago I was offered a matched pair of AyA No 1 shotguns for 12,000 Euro. The guns were made in the late 1950s, were absolutely top price point guns (they even had Purdey locks), and were in perfect condition in the original fitted two gun case. The guns were in Spain and I could have had the restocked to my measure by a Spanish gun maker for under 1000 Euro for the pair. At that time AyA wanted 15,000 Euro for a single No 1 gun, similar to but of lesser quality than, either of the pair from the 1950�s. Given that kind of choice, who in his right mind is going to buy the new gun?

These are the reasons, in my experience, why the Spanish gun makers are selling fewer shotgun today than they did ten years ago.

I'd say that the most recent price increases have seriously hurt the Spanish makers. When you could get an AyA #2 for about the same $ as an RBL with 2 or 3 bells and whistles, a lot of people went with the AyA. Now, with the AyA around $2k or more higher than the RBL, people begin to question whether it's worth it to pay that much more for a sidelock vs a boxlock.

The Turks have received some mention here. I don't see them as competition for the Spanish makers, except maybe Ugartechea at the bottom end of their line. The Turks have yet to make a double that's sold in any kind of numbers for more than $2,000. The Kimber sidelocks were initially priced higher than an AyA #2--which likely explains why they were a flop.

What it comes down to is this: If you want a decent NEW sidelock, the Spanish are still the least expensive. But that "least expensive" is a lot more expensive than it used to be. Which causes people to wonder how badly they want a new sidelock.

Look at what is being made in the US: Winchesters, Parkers, a variety of very interesting and very good s/s's and o/u's. Most of them competitive with the Spanish prices. Why buy a Spanish knockoff of an English gun when modern designs are being made and sold in the US.

I recently bought my dream double gun and started out looking at some spanish doubles and was not impressed with the fit and finish. Next i looked at Italian guns and was impressed with the fit and finish. The other plus was the Italian gun i got was rated to shoot steel shot and 3". I went back and checked and the spanish models i looked and i would have to bought an extra barrel to get 3" and a steel shot rated barrel was not available. I decided to not pay more for less gun. I have plenty of old doubles i cant shoot steel in, why would i buy a new one that would have that limitation. Im age 54 and bet that before my shooting days are over lead will be a thing of the past. Im fortunate that i can aford a nice toy every now and then, but i still want the best bang for the buck.

tom: popular wisdom says, not many "old" doubles are suitable for steel shot. generally, most guns made prior to the late 1980's have barrels made out of steel that is too soft to handle steel without scoring. plus, steel shot seems to cause barrel bulges in tighty choked guns. curiously, what "old" doubles have you found to be suitable for steel shot?