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i admire people who have the patience and fortitude to earn a pension.

Last edited by ed good; 09/23/14 01:05 PM.

keep it simple and keep it safe...
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In my state, teachers and other state employees are compensated at roughly double to what those in the Free Market earn. This is obviously due to the fact that their union is unconstitutionally awarded a monopoly on providing the services of its members. Unions themselves are not unconstitutional, the monopoly awarded them is.

All union contracts are essentially "No Bid" contracts, a status unions have because they have traded political support to sociopathic statist religious politicians willing to economically inflict themselves upon the taxtayer in order to confiscate their freedom and then buy votes of union members with it.

All jobs covered by unions should be open to bid, by either organizations or individuals for specific positions. That is Freedom and Equality, rather than the unconstitutional religious statism that is currently forced upon free and equal citizens.

You can now see the point that "earning" a government pension is subjective, as the amount of it is the result of a sociopathic statist religious infliction upon the taxpayer.


I prefer wood to plastic, leather to nylon, waxed cotton to Gore-Tex, and split bamboo to graphite.
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Defined pension benefits have been around for decades. Between the stock fall caused by 9/11 and the mortgage meltdown the returns on the pension investments have been much less than what the the defined monthly payment calculation was based on. Every pension that promised a defined benefit is at risk.

Every employer that provided or participated in a defined pension benefit plan had or has a liability now. Certainly I wasn't forced to be a union contractor. But to somehow assess those retirees drawing defined pension benefits as "suckers" is inaccurate and unfair. Most of the people that worked for me worked hard, showed up when they said they would, and did what they said they would do. Even though their unfunded pension liability cost me dearly I do not think of those fine people as "suckers".



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Ken that is what your state voted for.

You are free to move.

You are free to stay.

You are free to change those jobs to "bid" jobs if you can get the votes.

But in the mean time those public employees made a deal. They made a deal with your elected representatives. Your elected representatives provided a package of wages, health insurance, and pension benefits. The teachers showed up, did their job, and spent their work life in that teaching job. Their pension benefits were earned. Their pension benefits are not dole, they are not welfare, the teachers are not receiving something for nothing. They are a direct result of a contract between that public employee and that public entity that they worked for. Again, they are not "suckers" but just receiving the payout of a contractual obligation.

How about the people living off their stocks and bonds? Are they "suckers", receiving something for nothing? Or did they give up some consumption in their younger years to provide for their older years. If they bought Microsoft stock in the early nineties and held it to this day are they unworthy of that wealth? Should they be shunned as "takers"?



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Ken is correct,here is NO fairness or "earned" in the public sector union deals, its basic money laundering-you pay us more then we should get if it was the private sector and we will support you with more votes to give away money paid by others after your gone" !

Big difference in private and public sector pensions and union deals,those "sucking on the government tit"-like Bill got the inflated pension by taking advantage of no one representing the taxpayer on the other side of the deal !

One look at Detroit bankruptcy shows the cause and affect,claw back are coming and not soon enough to those "on the tit"


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We could get rid of all public services, put them up for bids in the open market, pay for their costs plus profits, and create an authentic class of takers. Is that it? Societies everywhere are against it.

Reading a Salvation Army publication the other day mentioning its goals and philosophy, I wasn't surprised to read a simple declaration that this much-respected organization "shuns the dependancy culture."

No one likes or wants an unwarranted dependancy ethos. Yet it continues to be attached here regularly and unintelligently to public services, particularly to citizens who make or made a lifetime career commitment to serving us.

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The issue here at hand is whether Bill is somehow deficient for accepting the pension provided to him by the terms of his employment as a teacher. IMHO what I'm about to say applies to everyone who works/has worked for the government.

Who among us would turn down an increase in employment compensation? None of us, or damn few, that is for sure. Frankly, in my view it is an obligation for each of us to provide the best possible support for our families and that is all that any teacher has done....got the best deal he could. Any beef one may have with a teacher's wages and benefits package is to be shooting the messenger, so to speak.

The problem lies with the white males who have dominated the political scene for the last 60 years. It is those elected officials who caved to the union demands, who struck unaffordable bargains. It not the microcosm of corrupt black democrats in Detoit who are to blame. it is all the voters and all the elected officials on both sides of the fence who allowed this foolishness to take root. We are now, as nations, paying the price for this idiocy.

But in no way can a man like Bill be faulted. As a young man, he choose what should be an honorable and valued profession, teaching our children. Pretty sure, as the years passed, he didn't make the rules. He probably did get to vote on them every for or five years, but he wasn't cutting the deals. He should take the money and feel just fine about it.

Ken, of all the people posting on this site, and elsewhere, you have, IMHO, relatively accurately nailed the problem. It is a belief system that has been fostered. The problem lies not with just the democrats but with both parties. The rise of the Tea Party reflects this. Disgust with the power for power sake nature that politics has become. King calls it a punk's game and he's right. My choice to vote for the conservative candidates is simply a usually misplaced hope they will expand government more slowly than the alternatives.

But you all make a giant error in reasoning by blaming those on the teat. Would we blame a calf! No we expect that from it. We should be blaming the supplier of the milk!


The world cries out for such: he is needed & needed badly- the man who can carry a message to Garcia
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Originally Posted By: canvasback
....But you all make a giant error in reasoning by blaming those on the teat. Would we blame a calf! No we expect that from it. We should be blaming the supplier of the milk!


I won't blame Bill for a single thing, all I know is he does not seem to be open to discussion. By he, I'm referring to the left. What I have a hard time stomaching is someone saying, I'm important, I provide a critical function in society....I'm going on strike. Then clearly, who has the history of encouraging the tactic.

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The trouble with public sector unions:

http://www.nationalaffairs.com/publications/detail/the-trouble-with-public-sector-unions

"To tolerate or recognize any combination of civil service employees of the government as a labor organization or union is not only incompatible with the spirit of democracy, but inconsistent with every principle upon which our government is founded. Nothing is more dangerous to public welfare than to admit that hired servants of the State can dictate to the government the hours, the wages and conditions under which they will carry on essential services vital to the welfare, safety, and security of the citizen. To admit as true that government employees have power to halt or check the functions of government unless their demands are satisfied, is to transfer to them all legislative, executive and judicial power. Nothing would be more ridiculous.

And one more, for the Roosevelt fans;

" Even President Franklin Roosevelt, a friend of private-sector unionism, drew a line when it came to government workers: "Meticulous attention," the president insisted in 1937, "should be paid to the special relations and obligations of public servants to the public itself and to the Government....The process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service."


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Originally Posted By: ed good

which reminds me, billy mitchell resigned from the army air corps in 1926. fdr did not become pres until 1932.



FDR as Billy Mitchells antagonist promoted the Court Martial of Billy Mitchell many times long before he ran for office, FDR was the Assistant Secretary of the Navy before Polio put him in his wheel chair....... being so well read I figured you knew that eddie, guess not.......

Mitchell resigned instead on February 1, 1926, and spent the next decade writing and preaching air power to all who would listen. However, his departure from the service sharply reduced his ability to influence military policy and public opinion.

Mitchell viewed the election of his one-time antagonist Franklin D. Roosevelt as advantageous for air power, and met with him early in 1932 to brief him on his concepts for a unification of the military in a Department of Defense. His ideas intrigued and interested Roosevelt..... whistle..... Mitchell believed he might receive an appointment as Assistant Secretary of War for Air or perhaps even Secretary of War in a Roosevelt administration, but neither prospect materialized.

FDR went on his own systematic destruction of the Army Air Service and other military branches. Roosevelt tried to keep his 1932 campaign promise by cutting the federal budget – including a reduction in military spending from $752 million in 1932 to $531 million in 1934 and a 40% cut in spending on veterans' benefits – by removing 500,000 veterans and widows from the pension rolls and reducing benefits for the remainder, as well as cutting the salaries of federal employees and reducing spending on research and education.

At the time of the Munich Agreement in 1938 – with the U.S. not represented – Roosevelt said the US would not join a "stop-Hitler bloc" under any circumstances. He made it quite clear that, in the event of German aggression against Czechoslovakia, the U.S. would remain neutral.

Roosevelt said in 1939 that France and Britain were America's "first line of defense" and needed American aid, but because of widespread isolationist sentiment, he reiterated the US itself would not go to war. In the spring of 1939, FDR allowed the French to place huge orders with the American aircraft industry on a cash-and-carry basis, as allowed by law. Most of the aircraft ordered had not arrived in France by the time of its collapse in May 1940, so Roosevelt arranged in June 1940 for French orders to be sold to the British.

The German victories left Britain isolated in western Europe. Roosevelt, who was determined that Britain not be defeated, took advantage of the rapid shifts of public opinion. The fall of Paris shocked American opinion, and isolationist sentiment declined. A consensus was clear that military spending had to be dramatically expanded.......duh.......









Doug



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