doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Syracuse Arms

Brad Bachelder is a fabulous craftsman.
There aren't many restorationists interested in $25.00 shotguns that are hard to resell at $300.00
We're lucky SAC used Stars and Bars tubes, otherwise there wouldn't be any of them left to fiddle with.

In my case, I am always troubled by shotguns too precisely restored. They always seem to resurface some day with an original condition upgrade.

I could use a trigger guard off an SAC A-1 Special Trap if anyone ever sees one. No, I don't have an A-1 special, I just want a straight grip stock for an SAC 12, grade 2 I have.

Sure, I'm not disputing the quality of the work, only the historical accuracy. "Paint a Purdey Purple", if that's what you desire. As long as it's your gun. The issue comes up when the term "Restoration" is used. "Wood and metal completely refinished" would probably be more apt.
Regards
Ken

I have seen a great deal of Brad's work. It's quite the insult to equate his skills with painting a Purdey purple.

You can say a firearm is functionally restored, or cosmetically restored, honestly. If there is no attempt to deceive, then value is between the parties interested.
I am only an observer of the after market steel coloring markets, but it would seem no one wants the utilitarian, simplified quench colors of the hardware store guns. Occasionally someone wants to recreate chain carried hot salt colors, but seldom the cheap and simple colors of the American common guns.

I don't know of anyone putting efforts into recreating them, but in the rifle market, there are dozens of people that work to recreate the early Winchester, Marlin, Colt, colors reliably.

Now, now, I didn't insult anyone. Certainly not Brad. I'll reiterate the point I made earlier, that I wasn't disputing the quality of the work. My point was that anyone can do anything they want with their own property. It's nobody else's business.

Good examples are such things as having a picture of yourself playing the guitar engraved on the action sides in Bulino, or engraving your gun with topless Harpies and other mythological creatures. Both examples previously discussed on this board. All a personal choice due to your own tastes.

The Marlin guys have really got into the "Nitty Gritty" of case color restoration, it's from them that I gained a lot of my initial knowledge.

I'll dispute your view that "it would seem no one wants the utilitarian, simplified quench colors of the hardware store guns". Hardly accurate, as case coloring was found on the whole gamut of grades, and was really more of a period metallurgical process that was adapted to be aesthetically pleasing as well. Why do you think that Vintage guns with high case color condition command significantly higher prices? Originality is obviously preferred, but accurate restoration is desirable as well. Turnbull is the obvious example. If they didn't, chances are people wouldn't take the time and effort to attempt to restore them.

Regards
Ken

People like turquoise.
It drives that market.

Americans have an almost pathological obsession with originality. It drives purchase prices in the secondary mkt. It provides opportunity for the crooks and charlatans.

I am always amused when Doug Turbull has to out a former customers deception.

As long as whatever is done isn't misrepresented, I have no anxiety over restorative work.

Color incidental to mass production heat treating of cheap guns wasn't done for art's sake.

I disagree with the American obsession with originality. I do agree with the European concept of refurbishment and renewal. I see no harm in restoring guns to condition similar when new. I agree that restored guns should be identified so, as to avoid misrepresentation.

I disagree that colors were incidental. Creating colors is much more complex than simple heat treatment, and is a more expensive process. Simple heat treatment would result in a dull, grey finish. Methodology was often a guarded process, as specific colors and patterns require very specific processes. There are many, many variables involved, it's as much art as science. There is no doubt that such time and expense were put into it because there was a consumer demand for it, as do many, including myself, consider case coloring to be a form of art. It's right up there with pattern-welded barrels.

Regards
Ken

Ken,Doc drew! top gun,

Did the upper grade SAC guns come with Stars and Stripes, Washington, and/ or American bunting or did the purchaser pay extra for hose patterns?

Another question: was the action internals an A & D or an original design. I see only one cross pin, not the usual three as per A & D.

Thanks.
John

Syracuse Arms barrels entirely per Tom, and I have not seen enough SAC Damascus to know what they used for 'Fine' or 'Finest'. The 'Washington' pattern shown is on a Gr 2 or 3:
Grade 00 "Triplet Steel" (first offered in 1901);
Grade 0 and Grade 1 "New Twist";
Grade 2 and 3 "Improved Damascus";
the Grades A and A-1 Special Trap "Fine Damascus" or optional Krupp Steel;
the Grade B and Grade C "Finest Grade Damascus" or optional Krupp Steel;
and the top of the line Grade D "Whitworth Fluid Compressed Steel" or the "Finest Grade of Damascus Steel Barrels Obtainable" (the Grade D gun retailed for $475.00 in 1902.

This is the most beautiful Syracuse Arms shotgun I've ever seen.
Damascus barrels, fabulous engraving.

I shivered when I looked at it the first time.

http://www.nramuseum.org/the-museum/the-galleries/freedom's-doorway/case-82-right-display/syracuse-arms-side-by-side-shotgun.aspx

It's not Turquoise

I am doing a copy of this for marsh birds. Just an engraving upgrade. A young guy by me wanted to try, and I gave him a Hollenbeck action to scratch on.
I haven't seen many SAC's with the Krupp tubes.

Note to add: I couldn't help but notice the NRA guns color is quite similar to Brad B's colored Syracuse. Probably where he got his reference images. Judging from pictures, I'd say you could patinate the refurbished SAC at Bachelder's to a very good approximation of the NRA gun.

Doesn't make it "as manufactured", but you can see where you can take the Bachelder gun with a little effort at patination.
FWIW I don't patinate guns, except by accident, neglect, or omission.

This gun should be out of restoration by now, perhaps Tom Archer has seen it after refurbishment.
http://www.cowanauctions.com/auctions/item.aspx?id=67877