doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Altering Chokes

Very well put, Sam.

SRH

Sam,
This is the first thing you've written that makes any sense. Everything else is jibberish and loses the context of his article.

If a writer is any good at his game--and the late Mr. McIntosh was better than most--he knows his audience. If I recall correctly--and I'm pretty sure I do--there used to be a specific column in Shooting Sportsman aimed at target shooters. That wasn't McIntosh's column. His was simply "Shooting". And in the article referenced, while he didn't write--maybe emphasizing in bold type--"CLAY SHOOTERS, PLEASE DISREGARD EVERYTHING CONTAINED HEREIN", he did make it pretty clear (by scarcely mentioning targets) that the column was aimed at upland hunters. As in: "For upland hunters, choke now is more bane than boon."

If one excludes doves, which are shot more like waterfowl than they are upland birds (over dogs), the most popular species in this country are pheasants, ruffed grouse (mixed with woodcock in the eastern half of the country), and bobwhites. On all of those, your average upland hunter, choosing his loads well, can kill plenty of birds with no choke at all. Having lived in Iowa when it was the #1 pheasant state in the nation, I had a chance to hunt them frequently. I seldom killed a rooster--or even took a shot at one--beyond 35 yards. I'd say I hit probably 80-90% of them inside 25 yards--at which range cylinder performs pretty much like full does at 40 yards (70% patterns).

McIntosh also understood--having coached a lot of shooters and participated in a lot of hunts (like those sponsored by Shooting Sportsman) with a pretty broad cross-section of hunters--that most are not very good shots beyond about 30 yards. And inside that distance, a gun with no choke has two clear advantages: the additional pattern spread compensates for aiming error; and the wide open pattern lessens the possibility of blowing a centered bird to pieces.

He specifically excludes turkey hunters and "crack long-range wildfowlers". Perhaps he should have also excluded the guys who are aces at trap and sporting clays. But not having addressed target shooting AT ALL in the article, I would have thought that would have been clear to readers.

But you can't please everyone with everything you write, which is something I learned myself pretty quickly when I started writing for various magazines.

Vernal, I provided supporting evidence flatly contradicting your assertion as to McIntosh's intent.

Have a day.

Sam

Mr. Stan,

My insight isn't "mystical", it's analytical , and I discussed it with the author personally.
The point of the article was to explain the effectiveness of today's cartridges compared to those of yesteryear which is why nobody orders double guns choked full/full anymore like your classic Fox was.
It's not necessary!


In my state pheasants and doves have to be hunted with nontoxic on public land so I typically just use steel in a 390 which has a skeet choke screwed in, just because I don't have cylinder. And I don't take 45yard shots, unless dove shooting in Mexico when the Paz takes the trip.

What choke constriction do you use for pheasants, desert quail and doves?


Vernal

I am 72: As a boy growing up in Nebraska in the 1950's; the shotgun every man owned was a 30 inch full by God choke. Any person who hunted with a Modified Choke was unusual, and probably believed to be some kind of sissy. We hunted Prairie Chickens, Pheasants & Ducks...we never saw geese.
I would bet that today, those guns hanging unused in the house are still 30 inch full choke Model 12's. Then, over time, the "Chicken" population dwindled, the Pheasants disappeared, and the ducks seem to have changed their flyway patterns. Now, as an old coot, living further east, I have been blessed to hunt doves, quail, and a few pen-raised pheasants, with an occasional trip to Winner, SD for pheasants.
I just don't shoot as good as a 30 year old guy, and over time, my choke selection has become more "open."
McIntosh probably overstated the cylinder case, but he hunted behind good bird dogs, and, I understand was a hell of a good shot. The pendulum swings.....but with modern ammo we no longer need a 30" full choke gun as we once did.
An old "Sissy."
Sam Ogle

Sam, you are right about the popularity of full choke back in the "old days"--although you're MUCH older than I am (about 3 years). A lot of those guns did double duty in the duck blind, then in the cornfields for pheasants. Back then, we hunted corn a lot for pheasants. Much "dirtier" than it is now, with a lot more weeds and stubble left after the pickers. Not nearly as clean to start with as today's corn, and significantly dirtier after the picker made its pass than after the combine cleans the field.

Also, dogs--except maybe the same Lab used for ducks--weren't all that common among pheasant hunters in places like NE and IA, where we had a LOT of birds. You wanted them to come down dead, and the belief was your chances were better of a dead bird with full.

Then came CRP in the mid-80's, by which time I had pointing dogs and was doing most of my shooting with a 16 choked IC/M--which worked just fine. I later found that for most of the pheasants I shot at, even less choke was good. If a bird flushed well out there, you could just let him go--because you knew there'd be another one, probably closer, before long. And it was just that much more opportunity to walk those big CRP grass fields and watch the dogs work.

Since you asked .......... I don't hunt pheasants. I don't like to eat the things, and they are not wild where I live, but I shoot doves and ducks, a lot.

I begin the dove season with a .410, with full and full, with 11/16 oz., or full and modified chokes. After the first couple shoots I go to a 20 ga. with 7/8 oz., in the early season with a LM in one barrel and an IC in the other. By the second season I go to a IM and a LM. Late season, big purple-necked migratory birds get shot with a 32" 16 ga. L.C. Smith with full and full chokes, and 1 oz. 7 1/2 shot. On a rare day in the late season I will take one of my 12 ga. Foxes, which will have at least M and F chokes. I pride myself in providing edible doves, as I dearly love them, and all this talk about blowing them to bits is pure BS. The choke does not control my trigger finger, I do, and I don't shoot them in my face. I am ready for the high flying doves of the late seasons, though.

For ducks, it's easy. If I am shooting woodies in a little beaver pond I shoot the most open choke I can get my hands on. I have been known to use a -.005" (that's commonly called a "negative"), with 1 1/8 oz. of the cheapest steel loads I can buy. Doesn't take much to deck a woodie at 15 yds. For decoyed big ducks I use my BSS which is choked .018" and .018", with 1 1/4 oz. of steel at 1550 fps.

I've done this long enough to know what I need and, McIntosh notwithstanding, cylinder rarely is it. Only for the ultra close woodies. What really bothers me the most about that article is that he feels he needs to dictate to experienced upland hunters his mantra of no choke. Everybody is not a freakin' grouse/woodcock hunter!

Results? No "shot to pieces" birds here. Good table fare.



For wild quail of all types, M and IC in a 20 ga., or M and F in a .410.

I disagree with your perception that MM was trying to educate us about the effectiveness of today's shells as opposed to yesteryear's. I think he was trying to "stir the pot". Reread his opening statement in the article if you think I'm wrong.

SRH

Stan: Well, I am a grouse hunter and I want a little choke in my gun, at a minimum, skeet choke. Grouse aren't like quail, you rarely step on one to flush. Most get up at least 10 yds out, even under a point. They run, then flush......a lot, I think. Woodcock are a different matter. They fly slow, yet erratically and the more open the choke, the better. I don't like to eat woodcock very much (dark meat) and let lots of them just fly away. In terms of dove, I had a great time hunting them once with my Perazzi single barrel handicap trap gun. Of course I only had one shot, but talk about reaching out there. Now for the most important question to you.......You say you don't hunt pheasants because you don't like to eat them; so are you really saying you would rather eat dove and duck than the nice, white meat of pheasant??? Really?????

Yep, really. I don't consider pheasant white meat, something somewhere between dark and white. Bobwhite is white meat. I absolutely love dove and duck. I can eat a limit of grilled dove breasts at one sitting. I eat woodcock and enjoy them, too, though not as much as dove and duck.

You don't get to step on wild quail, either, buzz. Especially not desert quail, and wild bobs will make you wish you had a modified in the second barrel, with a 16 or a 20, around here anyway. I won't even stoop to talk about put-n-take quail.

SRH