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Mike, once again, he did not say all barrels are bent but that he had seen some that were. That's why he checks before deciding which way to do the choke work.


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Fair enough.



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I have little doubt that considering the number of doubles produced over the centuries that some amount of those have gone out with "Bent" barrels. As of yet I have seen nothing to definitely indicate they were bent on purpose. There is Vast evidence extant that indeed great effort was applied to have them as Straight as possible. The fact that Joe's gunsmith checks a barrel for straightness prior to doing choke Work on them simply indicates he is most likely a competent Smith, does not on any way prove any of those barrels were intentionally Bent
The Rule of Three was of course meant as a bit of Sarcasm, in actuality I have had One Wife for a bit over 54 years now, though she does have Three Sisters, well Half Sisters to be totally accurate.
I do distinctly recall that several years back 8-Bore did state that barrels on a double ended up parallel at the muzzles for a short distance. I had thought that between several others as well as myself we had educated him beyond that belief, but when you stated that yourself & 8-Bore subscribed to the "Banana" configuration of the barrels I thought perhaps you were also subscribing to That Theory. The "Preponderance of the Evidence" certainly indicates otherwise.
It is true of course that a barrel can be bent by hand pressure without a press. It is also equally true that upon release the barrel will return to its original configuration. The reason the old time barrel makers used the press to straighten barrels was they had to be pushed to their yield Point so they would Stay Straight for assembly.
After Acquiring the L C Smith plans book & seeing the barrel assembly drawing I carefully measure barrel diameters & widths across their outsides at regular intervals. Even though of other brands they were all real close to that .011" per inch of convergence. I was also at that point already familiar with looking through the bore at the Rings as Stan mentioned here on this thread. All appeared as straight, "None" showed any signs of a Banana configuration.
Don't take My Word, Don't take the word of Joe's Gunsmith (which I think has been cleared up as being a mis-interpretation of what was actually said). Examine every set of barrels you have available to you. If you can find a set in which the barrels are indeed curved & placed Back to Back, Please do post the evidence, but no more Hear-Say.


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Joe's gunsmith indicated that the curve in the barrels was deliberate. Joe and I have had this discussion going on for years. Joe was asking the smith questions in the context of how the smith opened chokes, from the muzzle or a from the breech. Joe questioned specifically as to the curve of the barrels as this is of interest to both of us.

I grasped that the third wives reference was sarcasm. I didn't appreciate it, but I understood that you meant it as sarcasm.

I linked to a thread on the Parker board. There are very specific calculations based on very specific and well known dimensions of Parkers. Please do read that thread.

The curve in the bores is very small. Please post proof that, using your ring sighting method, you are able to spot a curve with a radius of 20 feet in a bore that is 2-1/2 feet long. Or a 30 foot radius. Or a forty foot radius. But I want to see a peer reviewed paper by a scientist or engineer that says you are able, using the ring sighting method, to spot even the smallest curve in a barrel bore. No hear-say. Look down the bottom barrel of a hangered Krieghoff and spot the curve in that using the ring method.



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So i have speaked with the gunsmith and he briefly explained me about the work that is done,first of all the muzzle chokes were 3/4 and 3/4 though what i didn't know was the chokes deeper inside the barrel were so tight,"they were even tighter than extra full" the gunsmith told me. He also added that they have opened those chokes to 3/4 and full and also tested the pattern with 28gr loads. I asked him about using higher gr loads such as 30 and 32(thats the max i use),and he replied me " We have tested the gun with 28gr loads,when you use 30 and 32 the pattern will have more points as expected. They will also send me the patterns they shot with the gun.

The reason i sent this gun to the gunsmith was there were big holes in the pattern and i had some trouble killing birds.Most of the time i shot them perfectly and they just wouldnt drop down even if i hit them and i myself tried the pattern on a big panel and saw it and send it immediately to the gunsmith.

I can see a lot of folks have tried to explain the meaning of boring and regulation and i really thank to that, i respect every opinion and the time you spent posting here.

All the best,

Kem

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I'd tend to agree all tubes can probably be shown to have some bend, but I'd wonder how the old makers could locate and align such a bend that might not be seen. Once done, how far would that effort move a shot pattern at say thirty yards.

It would be interesting to have an idea how Skeet's smith determines if bend is present. It doesn't seem to be his preferred method, but the reliable solution would be to pilot all choke work from the muzzle end.

I'd guess if he sees trends in barrel bends, however slight, it may be a byproduct of manufacturing. There may be many heating and machining steps that the tubes experience to become a barrel set. I'd think that similar steps could change stresses on the tubes in a similar way on different barrel sets.

The Krieghoff example sounds like a good way to see how visible a slight bend might be, but the purpose may be different than for side by side game guns. I've seen it used more as specialized gunfitting for individual styles rather than to get the barrels to shoot to the same point of impact.

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Mike,

I thought we were talking about S x S doubles, not O/U doubles. There is a huge difference. In your "banana" post you were referencing S x Ss, but this issue about Kreighoff O/U is apples and oranges. Just because a K80 has the ability to change the bottom barrel's impact by using interchangeable hangers, that put a slight bend in the bottom barrel, proves nothing about how S x Ss were/are assembled. Ever seen a S x S with adjustable spacers to regulate the barrels? of course not. There is no need to mess with the patterns horizontally on a gun already regulated. With an O/U the purpose is to change how high the pattern hits, in relation to the bead, as it were.

Read this short piece written by Kreighoff. They state that their skeet and sporting guns are delivered with the bottom barrel shooting flat, or 50/50, or "dead under the bead". This can be changed with the hangers. Trap guns are delivered shooting 70/30 (high). Can you prove to me that either of their models are assembled with the barrels ALREADY curved, to get the POI they deliver? Of course changing the hanger will curve them, that's obvious, but has nothing to do with our original discussion, IMO.

Interesting also is that the hangers only shift impact on the bottom barrel, I assume because that top rib gives the top barrel bracing and stability against bending.

http://www.halkguns.com/detail.cfm?g_ID=51

All my best, SRH


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Stan my Krieghoff argument counters your argument about the Berreta barrels being straightened in a press. You argued that since the Beretta mechanic was straightening them they had to be straight in the final barrel assembly. The ability to adjust the Krieghoff POI by bending the straight barrels means that the tubes in side by side barrels can be curved when they are assembled, even though the Beretta mechanic previously straightened them, just as the straightened Krieghoff lower barrel can be curved, either up and down, long after it left the factory.

Prove that they don't curve the tubes in a side by side when they assemble them into a barrel set.

I point out again the math I did in the thread on the Parker BBS that I linked to.

And the Skeets smith said that some barrels were curved.


Last edited by AmarilloMike; 05/09/14 09:32 PM.


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Point taken about the Beretta barrels being straightened, Mike.


Explain to me again the point of bending the S x S barrels in a curve during assembly, when the convergence can plainly be done with convergent angles. I do not doubt the "Skeets smith" has seen some curved barrels, but did he tell you he believed they were purposely assembled that way?

I've seen lots of centerfire rifle barrels that are bored off center, too. That does not mean they are supposed to be that way. They aren't.

SRH


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Well, I went back & read that Parker board link. WHAT, did I Miss. I saw absolutely no proof that any barrel had been shown to be Swamped, only pure speculation. I have shown you the L C Smith specs for their barrels which show linear convergence. I have also stated that I have "Personally" measure several sets of barrels for their spacing & they all showed linear convergence. Some of these were Lefevers & another or so but has been some time & don't recall for certain which ones, pretty sure on e was a Birmingham J P Clabrough which is one of the guns which i have shot probably better than any other gun I ever owned. Straight, from breech to muzzle by both measurement (outside of barrels) & by sight internally. Don't know much molre I can say to counter "Somebody Said", which so far is all the evidence you have cited. I can certainly see why you didn't appreciate the little "3" story, as they say there are things which hurt worse than the Truth, We just haven't figured out what it is yet.


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