doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Baker Shotgun History Question (Pre Folsum)

I found another vintage gun this weekend, which my cousin bought. I had converted him overnight to a Vintage Gun Enthusiast, all it took was shooting trap with my L C Grade 0 (2 iron damascus) and my Remington 1889 hammer gun (Twist). The next day we poked around and found him an early Baker sidelock in excellent, shootable condition (with proper psi loads) that I'm doing the research on.

A while back I posted a reply on a thread dealing with the VL&D relationship with Francotte that was proven wrong, so I'm trying to avoid the "a little information is dangerous" syndrome and acquire facts from folks who really have the knowledge.

I've done a fair bit of research already as far as Bakers, I've read all the stuff on the Baker forum, but quite a bit of other Baker info I've read is incomplete and often contradictory.

This gun is a twist barrel, "Trade Name" gun, marked "New Era" as well as "Nitro Hammerless". The serial number is 877xx. It has the three position safety, I've found referred to as a "Block Safety". It also has the spring loaded bolt through the barrel lug, which engages the lower frame. I'm not sure the correct name for this, so the actual name of this action would be a great help. The gun is not engraved. I think that this is an early Batavia gun, the same action used on the A and B grades. Is this an early "Batavia Leader" made from 1903 to 1916? The serial number falls in the correct 75,000-106,000 range. The gun also has what appears as the L C type fore end iron, which is a little loose due to the fore end being removed without the hammers being cocked. (I think)

I've read that the "New Era" name is associated with three firms, one being "The Fair" in Chicago, (forerunner to S.S. Kresge) but I can find only references to boxlocks. The other two are Strapleigh and Simmons Hardware, both in St. Louis. Given that the gun was found in the Chicago area, I'm wondering if the Baker-The Fair info I've found is incomplete. I'd bet both firms carried boxlock as well as sidelocks, especially after Baker was bought by Folsom. It also appears that Syracuse Arms also made guns under the "New Era" label. Here's the crux. Isn't Syracuse and Baker the same company? Didn't they change the name to "Baker Gun & Forging Co." after the move to Batavia?

The last question is about the lock design relationship to L C Smith. Did Hollenbeck have any influence? Which was first? Which was better? The Baker lock looks more complicated and would be more expensive to produce. Am I correct to think that this design was dropped after the acquisition by Folsom? Any experts out the able to point me in the right direction?

Ken,

Converting someone to a vintage enthusiast, and within 24 hours finding an "excellent, shootable" condition Baker is pretty impressive. Nice work.

This is also the right place for your question. There are several here, and one in particular, who hold a tremendous amount of Baker knowledge in their heads.

Good luck,
Will

It was fun. Believe me, if it had been anyone else, this gun would be in my cabinet instead. I think that the anti-damascus myth caused this gun to be put away and forgotten. The barrels still really have a strong pattern, although the case colors are only around 30%. The bores are spotless. The barrels "Ring like a Bell". Wood is excellent, with no cracks. It also has a nice 14 1/2 LOP, Baker butt plate, and only one small barrel dent. I think it's all original. He's already ordered the bushing to drop 6200 psi loads. Not bad for a Perazzi/Model 12 guy. It's simply beautiful..You'd "poop your pants" if I told you what he paid for it..

The gun is a Batavia Leader model, sold with a trade name. Advertised to shoot smokeless powder. No relationship at all to the L C Smith. Hollenbeck designed the first Baker hammerless side lock, and your gun is a later adaptation to his design. It was really the final design until about 1909.

Thanks. Hollenbeck (a man claiming to be his Great-Grandson claims its "Hallenbeck") for Bakers, and Alexander Brown for L C's. Anyone know about the Syracuse Arms/Baker Gun & Forging Co. linkage? Did Syracuse exist (in Syracuse) after the plant burned and the move to Batavia? Were some guns marked "Syracuse" yet completed in Batavia?

The Syracuse Arms Company was not connected to the Baker Gun and Forging Company except that Frank Hollenbeck had worked there as a superintentdant prior to forming the Syracuse Arms Company in 1893. It is possible that Frank Hollenbeck used those Baker Gun and Forging connections to purchase rough frames for his new Hollenbeck/Syracuse gun, but I haven't been able to establish that for a fact. The Syracuse Arms Company did produce their Hollenbeck gun under the trade name of "New Era" under contract with Simmons Hardward of St. Louis; those guns were offered with Twist and Improved Damascus barrels, and with optional auto ejectors. Based on the serial numbers I've seen, this contract was entered into after Frank Hollenbeck had resiged his position (July, 1895); and probably around 1897. Those SAC trade name guns were clearly marked as being made by the Syracuse Arms Company atop the barrels, and are easily distinguished from the Baker New Era guns by checking the width of the barrel lug (SAC lugs 1/4" wider). Baker made and sold their "C" frame boxlocks, and also their sidelock model under the name "New Era". This is the first i've heard that the SAC gunworks burned? All I can tell you in that regard is that gun production commenced in 1893 and "in a small way"; then the company expanded production and moved to a larger facilty in Syracuse sometime in 1901. As far as I can tell, gun production ceased before the end of mid-1905 after the company was sold to Simmons Hardware. I've never found any information to explain why Syracuse gun production ceased after the Simmons acquisition?

I think there is confusion going around here. It was Dr. Ellis Baker's Syracuse Forging & Gun Co., builder of the "New Baker" trigger-plate action hammer gun, of A.C. McFarland design, that burned in 1888 and then moved to Batavia in 1889, with Frank A. Hollenbeck as the new superintendent. Soon thereafter the company name was changed to Baker Gun & Forging Co. In 1893, Frank A. Hollenbeck left Baker and returned to Syracuse to found the Syracuse Arms Co.

Ok, let's see if I can get the "New Era" marking straight.

The Fair- Early Baker Gun & Forging Co. Sidelock. Essentially an early "Batavia Leader". Hollenbeck designed action.

Simmons- SAC sidelock, Hollenbeck designed.

Strapleigh- BG&F boxlock, C grade, as well as post Folsum production?

One of the sources I read (as I remember) linked SAC to Baker, (calling it SAC rather than correctly naming the company as SF&G Co) citing a name change after the factory burning and a move to Batavia, with the name change coming a few years after the move. That info looks to be incorrect.

It's also very possible that I myself failed to make the distinction between SF&G Co and SAC during my initial research.

Anyone have more additions or corrections?

I certainly don't understand some of your conclusions Friend; the tern "SAC" is simply the abbreviation I and others use to save time typing "Syracuse Arms Company". The "SAC" never manufactured a side-lock for Simmons or anyone else; even the SAC hammer gun was a box-lock hammer, so there is no such animal as a "Simmons- SAC sidelock"?, I know of no connections between "SF&G Co and SAC" other than Frank Hollenbeck was a superintendent for both companies. I'm probably the guy confused here; but I strongly encourage you to atone to Brother Researcher for the historical information you seek, as NO ONE is more knowledgeable as to the incestuous relationships that existed between our early American double gun makers and the leadership of same than Brother Researcher.

Sounds as if you are referring to what Baker called the "Draw Bolt" designed to aid the hinge Pin in absorbing the back thrust on the action. I was unaware this bolt was ever used on the Batavia line, though could well be wrong on that. All the Bakers of the Batavia line I have ever had any knowledge of did not have the Draw bolt & had a safety which only blocked the triggers.