doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Steel Strength

http://books.google.com/books?id=ycUOAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA614&lpg
A Manual of Rules, Tables and Date For Mechanical Engineers, 1891 by Daniel Kinnear Clark

Wrought Iron 23-28 long tons = 51,500 � 63,000 psi (lbs/sq. inch)
Cast Iron 10.5 long tons = 23,500 psi

http://books.google.com/books?id=czsyAQA...p;q&f=false
The Mechanical Engineer's Pocket-book of Tables, Formulae, Rules and Data: A Handy Book of Reference for Daily Use in Engineering Practice, 1893 by Daniel Kinnear Clark

Siemens 26-28 long tons = 58,000-62,700 psi
Whitworth 29.5-30 long tons = 66,000-67,200 psi

Some of these numbers are very likely marketing hyperbole:

Winchester Nickel Steel, introduced in 1889, 100,000 psi
Winchester Proof Steel, developed for the Model 21 and introduced in 1931, 115,000-120,000 psi

Remington 1902 catalog stated Remington Ordnance Steel (introduced in 1897 for the 1894 Hammerless Double) had a tensile strength 110,000 lbs per sq. inch with an elastic limit of 60,000 psi

Marlin Model 21 Pump, introduced in 1907, �Special Smokeless Steel� 100,000 psi


S.A. Buturlin was a Russian Ornithologist who also published extensively on Hunting and Sporting Arms, including �Shotgun and Shooting It� in 1929; similar in scope as W.W. Greener�s �The Gun�
http://rutracker.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3524270

He referenced a 1905 study which I am unable to find

Steel Type............Max PSI (lbs/sq in)
Damascus -------------- 31,291 to 52,626
Typical 1905 Barel Steel --- 64,000
Winchester Standard Ordnance Steel ----- 39,400 (seems low?)
Winchester Nickel --- 88,600
Krupp Special -------- 85,340
Krupp 5 M ------------ 92,450
Bohler Antinit -------- 116,630

What is Krupp 5M?

Hunter Arms never made any psi claims, only this:
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1898/VOL_30_NO_23/SL3023023.pdf Feb. 26 1898
Our famous Crown Steel (introduced in 1893 for the Pigeon Gun) barrels will now be put on our No. 2, $80 list gun regularly, with an option on the Damascus if preferred. After years of use on our No. 3 guns, we can cheerfully say that our Crown Steel barrels are a decided success in every way. In addition to this very important change we now offer you an entirely new design in engraving on this grade. It is neat and in keeping with a gun of this description
In regard to our No. 3 gun, $100 list, we come to you with something entirely new in gun barrels called Nitro steel. For months and months we have been testing these barrels to fully demonstrate to ourselves their qualities, and the result is most satisfactory. This Nitro steel comes the nearest to the Whitworth fluid steel of any gun barrel ever offered to the trade.

And for comparison:
AISI 1018 Low Carbon (Mild) Steel � 64,000 psi
AISI 4140 Chrome Moly � 95,000-100,000 but can be heat treated to much higher

I would be very happy if an engineer checked my math and numbers!

Krupp M grade Flustahl means Molybedenum added-- Krupp A means a austenetic grade of stainless steel- antitinit (rust free) or rost frei wir Sie spreken Deutsch mein Fruend!

You might want to read the great book "The House of Krupp" sometime, Herr Drewbie!

First time I've ever seen where someone is saying that Winchester's pre-1930 Nickel Steel is stronger that their later Proof Steel. Is there anything to this allegation?

Winchester Nickel Steel, introduced in 1889; 100,000 psi.
Winchester Proof Steel, developed for the Model 21 and introduced in 1931; 115,000-120,000 psi.

and WPS also added to the M12 to replace the earlier Nickel steel, ditto the M54 with Nickel steel, later WPS on the M70-- all "running changes"- Betcha a Maurice Chevalier straw hat that the brains at WRA wished they had never fooled with the ill-fated stainless steel barrels in the mid to late 1920's- what a Fubar!!

Stainless steels, especially the 300 series austenitic steels, are more likely to be chosen for their corrosion resistance than their strength. Tensile is usually in the 65 kpsi range, although 430 stainless does hit 95 kpsi. A lot of good guns have been built with 400 series stainless.
SAE 4140 is a normal modern choice for gunmaking steels, has good machineability and the tensile strength at 95 kpsi is sufficient to allow fairly light weight.
If you want really strong stuff, go to the maraging steels that Remington uses for their flush Full steel rated choke tube. Tensile up to 510 kpsi and yield up to 351 kpsi. I had never heard of them before RemChokes, but I have since had several extreme duty industrial parts made out of it with excellent success. THAT is tough stuff.

Drew, What you are doing now and the discussion that it is producing are the greatest contribution to understanding the strength of these old barrels since Sherman Bell, Buck Hamlin and perhaps others "found out for themselves" what it would take to blow up a set of decrepit old barrels. Being a mechanical/technical moron, I have nothing to contribute to the discussion other than appreciation. As a collector of 100+ year old Damascus and fluid steel guns, I watch with great interest from the sidelines.

Yes, I agree that the numbers for Winchester's Standard Barrel Steel seems very low, I suspect that the true numbers are equal to or greater than SAE 1018 at 64K PSI.

SAE 1018 is about the lowest grade of steel that there is

V/R

Mike

Drew, a quick "once over" of your numbers looks good to me. The discussion is progressing nicely! Good topic. Thanks. I'll check a bit deeper in the near future (taxes!!!)

DDA

This is what I found in "The Art of Shooting" by Charles Lancaster, 6th edition 1898:



Lord Walsingham on Damascus and Whitworth Barrels, interesting point of view!
(or point of sound�) Any doubt, that he hasn't enough experience? ;-)

Gunwolf