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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,375 Likes: 105
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,375 Likes: 105 |
Although your Fox 16 came with factory 2 3/4" chambers, at the time it was made, most 16ga shells were still 2 9/16". There were "heavy" 16's even in those short hulls: 1 1/8 oz shot. But that was over 3 drams equivalent of powder. The current 16ga "express" loads are 3 1/4 DE, 1 1/8 oz, which means more recoil than the more typical vintage loads. I would not worry about pressure since your gun is late 1930's and has factory 2 3/4" chambers, but recoil might be a concern. There used to be 2 3/4 DE, 1 1/8 oz 16ga loads. Significantly reduced recoil but still with a heavier shot charge. However, I don't think anyone is making those any more.
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,381 Likes: 1
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,381 Likes: 1 |
I'm going to SD for the pheasant opener. I'm considering taking a 16ga Fox Sterlingworth (Utica) and have some concerns about using heavy pheasants loads. These range between 1-1/8 & 1-1/4oz. of shot and around 1300 fps. velocity. The is a very late (1938-40) production gun with 2-3/4" chambers. Should I be concerned? Yes. I examined couple and these were petite light weight guns. I would be afraid of recoil forces and how it would affect my jaw and in particular tooth fillings.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,884 Likes: 106
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,884 Likes: 106 |
History lesson -- From the late 1890s until after WW-I, the heaviest 16-gauge loads our North American ammunition companies offered were 2 3/4 drams of bulk smokeless powder or 22 grains of dense smokeless powder such as Infallible or Ballistite, pushing 1 ounce of shot. Those loads could be had in the "standard" 2 9/16 inch case or any of the longer 2 3/4, 2 7/8 or 3-inch cases. In late 1922 or early 1923, Western Cartridge Co. added the 16-gauge to their progressive burning powder loads called Super-X, but unlike the 1 1/4 ounce 12-gauge and 1 ounce 20-gauge Super-X loads which were put up in Western's 2 3/4 inch FIELD shells, the 1 1/8 ounce 16-gauge Super-X load was put up in their 2 9/16 inch FIELD shell. When the Lubaloy shot Super-X loads were introduced in July 1929, they were put up in Western's high brass RECORD shell, but the 16-gauge still in a 2 9/16 inch length case. The 2 3/4 inch 16-gauge shell really began to get some traction when Remington Arms Co., Inc. introduced their Model 11 and "Sportsman" autoloaders in 16-gauge in 1931, chambered for 2 3/4 inch shells. While Remington's regular Nitro Express 16-gauge progressive burning powder load was put up in a 2 9/16 inch hull with a load of 3 drams equiv. pushing 1 1/8 ounce of shot, for their new 16-gauge autoloaders they introduced the slightly faster Auto-Express with a 3 1/4 drams equiv. charge pushing 1 1/8 ounce of shot -- I'm thin on Winchester ammo catalogues, but for sure by 1934, they were offering a similar 2 3/4 inch 16-gauge load. The 2 3/4 inch Magnum shells with 1 1/2 ounce in 12-gauge, 1 1/4 ounce in 16-gauge and 1 1/8 ounce in 20-gauge first appear in the December 15, 1954, Western Cartridge Co. catalogues.
Last edited by Researcher; 10/13/13 11:42 AM.
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 134 Likes: 3
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 134 Likes: 3 |
Didn't Elmer Keith push for that 1 1/4oz 16 load? I think he had a 3 or 4E NID that he hunter with a lot.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,884 Likes: 106
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,884 Likes: 106 |
Early on Elmer got a No. 3 16-gauge, but later on he got Major Askins NID No. 5E fully optioned 30-inch barrel 16-gauge, pictured on page 30 of Shotguns by Keith.
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,018 Likes: 50
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,018 Likes: 50 |
I concur with the view that heavyweight or super fast loads are not required in order to kill consistently.
When young I frequently shot 1 1/4 Super XX though my 16 Sterlingworth (#6 Right #5 Left). I have since grown up. Now days I regularly shot 1 1/8 through my 16ga (#7 Right #6 Left). I often shoot 1oz #7 Spreader Loads over my dog's point.
All my loads travel out around 1150 FPS or so; whether target loads, perserve loads, or wild game loads.
Michael Dittamo Topeka, KS
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,375 Likes: 105
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,375 Likes: 105 |
Interesting on the Western Cartridge offerings. There was a Super-X 16, described as a 2 3/4" "magnum", pushing 1 1/8 oz shot. But the Super-X 16 with Lubaloy (copper-plated) shot was made up in the old, short 2 9/16" hull. That was as late as 1940. The 16 was the last gauge to transition to 2 3/4" chambers as standard, which probably explains why even some "premium" loads--the Lubaloy cost more than the 16ga "magnum", $1.48 to $1.32--were still in the old, short hulls.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,884 Likes: 106
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,884 Likes: 106 |
Western Cartridge Co. added a 2 3/4 inch 16-gauge to their Super-X offerings for 1938. From 1938 through 1942 they called this 16-gauge 2 3/4 inch Super-X shell "Magnum", even though it was still a 1 1/8 ounce payload. By Western Cartridge Co.'s March 7, 1946, catalogue the term "Magnum" was gone from this 2 3/4 inch 16-gauge Super-X shell. In Western's January 2,1947, catalogue, the 2 9/16 inch 16-gauge Super-X shell was gone from both the chilled shot and the Lubaloy offerings, and their only 2 9/16 inch shells being offered were Xpert. This may have been an oversight, as the 2 9/16 inch 16-gauge Super-X shell with chilled shot is back in Western Cartridge Co.'s April 8, 1948, catalogue and price list, and the 2 9/16 inch 16-gauge Super-X loads remained until their last appearance on Western Cartridge Co.'s January 2, 1962, catalogue and price lists, where it is "available until stocks depleted." By Western Cartridge Co.,s January 2, 1963, catalogue and price lists the new Mark 5 was introduced and all the 16-gauge Super-X offerings are 2 3/4 inch. By the January 2, 1964, Western Cartridge Co. catalogue and price list the 16-gauge 2 9/16 inch Xpert shell is gone as well.
Last edited by Researcher; 10/13/13 11:33 AM.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,146 Likes: 1146
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,146 Likes: 1146 |
I must have 8-10 boxes of "late model" 1 1/4 oz. #4 (16 ga.)shells. Also have almost perfect 32" Elsie 16 ga. that I'd like to use those loads in, on crows. But, I can't make myself do it. Maybe, if I glass bedded it, it'd handle them alright. It'd be death on the crows with the full and full barrels.
SRH
Last edited by Stan; 10/13/13 02:33 PM.
May God bless America and those who defend her.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,884 Likes: 106
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,884 Likes: 106 |
A few years back I got a mixed case of 16-gauge shells from the neighbor of a friend. I kept all the 1 1/8 ounce #6s and traded all the 1 1/4 ounce Magnum #4s to Long Range down in Pocatello for factory 1 ounce #8s. I will likely have lead #6 shells for my RBL-16 for the rest of my Pheasant hunting days.
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