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Forums10
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 534
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 534 |
Raimey, That's not an "imported tube" stamp, that's a "proved in the finished state" stamp. The Manufacture d'armes et cycles de St Etienne used it all the time and they certainly were making their own tubes. This stamp was used to denote the fact that there had been no provisional proof of the tubes. The maker was confident enough that the tubes were OK and finished the gun without provisional tests. It was all OK with the proof house as long as the gun passed the final proof. If the gun did blow up, money would have been wasted, but that's not a problem for the proof house. Companies with tight quality control and good processes don't need provisional proofing. There is no such thing as an "imported tube" stamp at least in France. There are stamps such as AE palm, AR. ETR. or ARME ETRANGERE, which are stamped on foreign weapons. Granted, if tubes had been imported, the gun could have borne a "proved finished" stamp. However, that's not automatic, far from it. Besides, Belgian tubes would have been proved in Belgium anyways. Best regards, WC-
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,372 Likes: 103
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,372 Likes: 103 |
Woops . . . grasping at yet another broken straw, Raimey??
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 534
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 534 |
As a matter of fact, in my mind it would be far more likely that a company doing their own tubes would be choosing that option. Otherwise, you would want to have an official test done on them before spending money on assembling, fitting, finishing etc.
Best regards, WC-
Last edited by WildCattle; 08/19/13 10:03 PM.
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,736 Likes: 181
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,736 Likes: 181 |
WC, Brown, I think y'all are somewhat mislead. The fad of proofing each tube passed when confidence was found in the integrity of the steel. I agree it is an in the final state stamp but when you consider the steel type, Acier Diamant a trademark of L-C, I say it was purchased in the white from L-C and either the Liege marks not applied or worked off. I will admit that it is possible for an inland in the final state proof is possibly, but if more fits importing sporting weapons in the white and going for the full Monte. Show me a St. Etienne concern that had protection for the term Acier Diamant?
Kind Regards,
Raimey rse
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 534
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 534 |
"Acier Diamant" has always been a V-C marking, how the heck does Lebeau come in the picture? L-C had "de Wahlreyne", "Metal Vant Horn" and "Leugrann" but Diamant??? Really??? And even if L-C had the trademark in Belgium, it would have been useless/not recognized in France, anyways...
WC-
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,372 Likes: 103
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,372 Likes: 103 |
I've seen "acier diamant" on French guns other than from V-C. I always thought of it as basically a generic term, perhaps indicating a step up in the quality of the steel from whatever the basic grade was. Or maybe not. Unless the steel is marked with the name of the source, like Whitworth, I've never placed a lot of stock in whether it's called "superieur", "diamant", etc.
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 534
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 534 |
What a dummy ! "S H et Cie" is of course "Societe Heurtier et Compagnie", the famous St Etienne Barrel maker. WC-
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 534
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 534 |
I say it was purchased in the white from L-C . ..... Show me a St. Etienne concern that had protection for the term Acier Diamant?
Wow Raimey, you don't have an ounce of a beginning of a proof that these tubes were imported from L-C. Why not from Tula Arsenal in Russia or Japan from that matter??? I actually looked for a VC "Diamant" trademark and could not find one. Either it was never granted or never applied for or lost somewhere. That certainly does not mean anything. Many companies use brand names that they don't bother or fail to register. Best regards, WC-
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,373 Likes: 6
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,373 Likes: 6 |
The 1922 V-C catalog has 13 pages dedicated to their gun barrels, including an extensive discussion of the four steel grades they used. "Acier Diamant" is used for all four grades (in increasing order): Acier Diamant Acier Diamant/Acier Jacob Holtzer Acier Diamant/Acier Jacob Holtzer (Qualite Superieure) Acier Diamant/Acier Jacob Holtzer Trempe. The only mention I can find in the catalog that seems to discuss Acier Diament's significance directly is the following (and you are on your own for translation!): Les aciers au creuset que nous employons depuis longtemps et que nous designons sous la denomination d'<<Acier Diamant>> donnent a resistance egale par millimetre des allongements, des resilences et des limites elastique bien superieures aux aciers Martin et electriques.
Last edited by Doverham; 08/26/13 02:36 PM.
Such a long, long time to be gone, and a short time to be there.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,372 Likes: 103
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,372 Likes: 103 |
"Acier diamant" was not the only type of steel used by V-C. The first V-C I ever owned was an Helice 33 No. 3. V-C was kind enough to send me pages from their 1934 catalog, which was when the No. 3 was introduced. It was a higher grade gun than the Helice 33's Nos 1 & 2, which were introduced in 1933. While the No. 2 also uses acier diamant, the basic gun--Helice 33 No. 1--had barrels of "acier tres fin comprime 'Verney-Carron'". Probably some sort of cheap Belgian steel.
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