doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Verney-Carron Helicobloc

I agree here as Claude, who was born sometime near 1800, whittled on a piece of wood and his talent was so great he won a prize. A bit early for him to be a master gunsmith and hang out his shingle in 1820, but that's the folklore. Like I said a lot of girth with this maker. True in 1830 he hyphenated his name so unless Junior in Lyon also married a Carron, their family ties must me somewhat closer. The origin dates of 1630/1650 that are throw around must be those of the Carron family?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Apparently with the Verney family rather than the Carron's, Raimey--at least per the article published in Shooting Sportsman on V-C a few years back. Guy Verney goes back to 1650. Antoinette Carron was "both a daughter and granddaughter of gunmakers" . . . Sorry, but 2 generations does not 2 centuries make.

If you could temporarily remove your Liege blinders, we might be able to have an objective discussion here. It isn't like St. Etienne lacks for a gunmaking history of its own.

I don't understand the gist of your post except to argue and if you wish to continue to lock horns then that's just fine with me. But do tell me how a fella in St. Etienne named Verney marries a lady in St. Etienne named Carron and then a business in Lyon is also named Verney Carron and is a very distant relative from Claude? Most of your arguments are filled with holes like Swiss cheese and do not hold water.

It is not my bias and not even a set of St. Etienne binders but a St. Etienne plank in your eye Mr. Brown that prevents us from having an "objective discussion." I concede that there was a gun making centre in St. Etienne but the French looked down their noses at the Liege makers while turning their heads while the sourced them. True, run of the mill production models could be had in St. Etienne, but they still sourced Liege for some of their components or wares. Show me 1 Liege maker that registered with the St. Etienne proofhouse? Just one. Also put some proof in all this guts and glory pudding that you spout of the St. Etienne craftsmen and not just folklore. You continue to say I have a Liege bias, which I do not, so prove it. You have a few more post than I, but sift thru and find say 10% that support a Liege bias. I challenge you.

I will say that I have a better appreciate the designs and technology of V-C such as the Heliblock, etc. and would heavily consider such a sporting weapons platform like the one Paul owns.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

All quite simple, Raimey. Lyon never was a gunmaking center (no proofhouse there, ever) unlike both St. Etienne and Paris. Why do you find it unusual for a French gunmaking family to sell guns in Lyon, even if they're made in St. Etienne? They also sold guns in Paris . . . per the same catalog (1930's) that tells us they sold guns in Lyon. And since catalogs are all about selling guns, why would they include incorrect information about where you can go to buy a Verney-Carron shotgun? Does not pass the very simple "logic" test--at least not for me.

As for whatever St. Etienne sourced from Liege . . . can't quite translate your sentence #2, paragraph #2. But if you're attempting to say they may have had barrels made elsewhere . . . OK, possible. So prove that's the case. We know for a fact that barrels were indeed made in France; we know for a fact that V-C advertised that the steel in their barrels came from a French steel-making company, or at least for some of their barrels. Possible, even with Holtzer steel, that the barrels were made in Liege? Sure. Also equally possible they were made in St. Etienne, unless there's proof that that is not the case.

As for V-C registering with the Liege proofhouse, are you suggesting that they did not also submit guns for proof in St. Etienne? Guess you have not looked at very many V-C guns, because all of them I've looked at (and owned) have been proofed in St. Etienne. We know for a fact that V-C absorbed several other French makers (including F. Darne). Why would it be impossible that they either bought out a Belgian maker, or licensed a Belgian maker to produce guns for them using their Helice design, then sell them in Belgium? If either of those is the case, makes more sense to get guns made in Liege proofed in Liege rather than in St. Etienne. Companies like Browning and Winchester have had millions of guns made in Japan. They also had them proofed in Japan. So let's just say that V-C's Liege operation was more of a case of that company being more aggressive about both having guns made for them and selling guns in Belgium--apparently for a fairly brief period of time, and perhaps interrupted by the Great Depression--than any Liege makers were about having guns both made for them and selling guns in France.

Good to see that you appreciate the technology behind the Helice guns. At least you're not telling us that it was actually designed by some Belgian. That's significant progress, in your case.

This find may be of interest for you all:

http://www.parlonschasse.com/component/p...15.html?p=31379

Kind Regards,
Wolfgang

Just a note to The Lyon question:

On the official Site you an find this under history

En cons�quence, la d�cision est prise � cette date de transformer petit � petit une entreprise de vente directe au d�tail en manufacture distribuant ses produits par le r�seau des armuriers revendeurs. Cette politique devait conduire ult�rieurement � l'abandon progressif des succursales cr��es � Lyon en 1872, � Marseille en 1876 et � Paris en 1907. Avec la crise vient la r�cession et Verney-Carron ajoute la distribution d'articles de p�che, de tennis, puis la fabrication de bicyclettes sous sa marque � partir de 1936. Cette derni�re diversification, � une p�riode o� peu de gens sont motoris�s, aide l'entreprise � passer les dures ann�es de la seconde guerre mondiale.

That says, there was a "succursales" in Lyon since 1872! (as well as in Marseille and Paris which they have to abandon after the great crash in the 1920ies)

Kind Regards,
Wolfgang

Sorry, wring thread

Another St. Etienne proofed with toplever stop:





Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

So I guess a toplever stop means you can't rely on the left-of-center top lever as an indicator of the gun being off-face?

If I remember any of the chatter thus far it would seem that either it or the Helicobloc was adjustable? So maybe it countered? I'm curious if every toplever with a stop containds the V-C design? Much more digging is to be performed.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse