doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Sleeved bbl pic's...a gripe

Why is it so many Gunsite pic's of sleeved Guns always seem to not quite give a close up of the sleeve joint?
I guess I know why, but the first pics I'd want of a sleeved gun I might want are these very pictures?
If the joint is of the Seamlessly Sleeved variety,then proudly give me a macro shot of the bugger, save us all some wasted time.
If its a horror show, I'll still find out by the pictures I'll request before considering a purchase
What's up with that?, or am I being picky?
I know some put up the good pics, buts its not like I'll not notice a horrific sleeve job
franc

ask for them.

Franc, if your complaint is being able to see the joint, I'm assuming you don't compare what you're seeing to your typical monobloc gun. On those, some of the makers even give you a touch of engraving on the joint.

I am betting that Franc, like me, has been mislead by a dealer's description of a "well done" seamless sleeved barrels on a purchase he would never make if he had seen the unsightly seam first.

I do ask for close up photography now before I give second thoughts to an inter net purchase. Like Franc, I wish that they be included in the listing.

Don't buy sleeved guns.

Problem solved.

Best,
Ted

it is amusing that some members of this forum concentrate on how guns look and seam to have no interest in how they perform... to my mind, a gun safely sleeved is much more interesting than a nice looking gun that has no functional value due to defective barrels. and I would much rather see a cosmetically imperfect sleeved gun that shoots both barrels to a similar point of aim at a specified distance, rather than a gun with a perfectly sleeved, seamless appearance that shoots all over the place! course, its the same old argument. form verses function...it would be nice if we could have both all the time and at a bargain price!

Everyone that complains about seeing the joint, should sleeve one themselves.Then compare theirs to the others.
Mike

I do not mind a sleeved gun. And some of the joints are worse than others. But I suspect it has as much to do with starting barrels as the quality of the job done. Sometimes two different metals will just not look alike when they are next to one another. I have seen seem-less jobs that were two vastly different colors when finished. To me when it is truly invisible it is as much luck as skill. Now a bad job is neither.

I have a number of rather nice guns, nothing I would call anything but shooters which is the purchase reason why I bought them. Most have invisible seams....in ordinary light. One doesn't. I kept it after it arrived because it was exactly as described and is a good shooter.

However if the dealer had told me that the seam was barely visible or had not shown the seams in his photos, I would not have kept it, just as I would not keep one that was cosmetically scarred in some other manner and not disclosed.

Good photography is not requesting too much of an internet dealer, IMHO.

What do you have ? I might can help you get out of it!
Monty
montgom@tecinfo.comXXXX555
cell662x378x6169xxxxxx

Thank you Monty, but she is as described and is indeed a good shooter, so I will continue to give her safe space.

Oh. She is a Coggie.

Seamless joints need to have the barrels and breech ends a little undercut, so that when the tubes are pressed into the ends the "lips" meet and meld. Arguably it is technically more dsirable to machine the mating surfaces square and assure full contact than have any suspicion that a hollow might have been left between the "seamless" surface and the underlying "step".

It seems more honest to have a line that warns all about the sleeved, therefore less valuable, nature of the gun. But I might be wrong on that one.

to me, a safely sleeved gun that shoots both barrels to point of aim is far more valuable than an original gun that has unsafe barrels.

Sleeved guns are an acquired taste.

Some cannot stand them, others (to include myself) accept the trade off in order to be able to shoot an otherwised ruined gun.

I would rather replace the barrels with new, but the challenges of finding the right guy and pay the bill is greater than my check book.

I am sure all of us who grudingly accept sleeving wish we could have new barrels. That said, I will happily take out my sleeved SLE to the clays range today and enjoy the afternoon.

While I do appreciate the point of view that "best guns" should not have sleeved barrels with the seam showing, collector's can pass on these and leave the working guns to those of us who like them and put them to work on the course or in the field. The guns I use are "London best". They represent some of the best work done by their builder's and for me were affordable in this condition. Their design, feel between the hands, weight and balance, engraving, quality of wood and stocking are just about perfect in every way. Yes, that they have been sleeved discounted the price but that made them available to me at a price where I can own and use them. I am a retired working class slub who really likes using really nice guns. Remember that "life is to short to hunt (or target shoot) with an ugly gun".

life can be even shorter if you hunt or target shoot with an unsafe gun. even if it is a London best, whatever the hell that means to us frugal descendants of rebel scots...

I have both sleeved and unsleeved guns. The only problem I have seen - and I was lucky enough to handle a gun that had been made with two sets of barrels, one set of which had been sleeved (due to an accident) - was balance.
Certainly - in this case, the sleeved barrels (same length) were heavier - and the gun just felt better balanced with the original barrels, which had been better struck up.
Since sleeving is essentially an economical way of restoring a gun to use, I think that a lot of sleeved barrels have not been filed down to reduce unwanted weight as much as they could have been.

Ed, that is exactly my point. These fine examples of gun craft have been brought back into using condition. Guy's like me are able to afford them and will be using "best guns" well into the next generation. With care and proper use these 100 plus year old guns will be 200 year old "best guns". They will be affordable to working class guy's. John, when properly sleeved the weight will be very close to the original gun. Proper balance and feel, The between the hands weight that makes them lively and a joy to carry and use. Many guns have been struck and honed to clean them up and feel really light, to light to do really good work in practice, whereas those sleeved and properly struck will have a weight and balance to them that is both lively and with momentum to make best use of them.

often, sleeved barrels on English guns are heavier than original barrels, due to liability concerns...100 years ago, there were not as many lawyers and progressive lawyer/judges who are so ready to sue and award outrageous punitive damages as there seem to be these days...

and of course, modern ammo pressures are so much higher than they were prior to ww1, which is a reason why so many fine old guns need to be sleeved with new heavier tubes.

With access to modern CNC lathes and high strength steels it is possible to turn barrels of any profile, hence any desired balance. Turning on modern lathes is one of the least expensive metal working processes these days. If the profiles are carefully taken from the original barrels the balance of the sleeved pair should closely match the originals, or anything else the client wants.

Now if we are honest, we must admit that if the original barrels were monobloc this whole sleeving caper would be so much easier and more reliable.

Re value- anyone know of a sleeved 16 gauge, non ejector, side pedal Dickson, rejected by "mint condition only" collectors please let me know. Hell, I would even take it with no barrels at all!

Me too...if you can get a Dickson round...without barrels...please let me know.

It has been suggested that sleeving tubes can be custom profiled to match the original tubes . Yes it can but this will add considerably to the cost . It is also a fact that an original pair of barrel that have had .015" /.020" bored out of them or had the outsides filed down to remove pitting or damage will weigh considerably less than the replacement tubes .
Question is what did they weigh originally ex works ? Also bear in mind that most will want to use 2&3/4" cases and nitro powder not 2&1/2" black powder .
I do not understand the prejudice when people on this site advocate some of the stock repairs that have been suggested .