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Lyon, as the largest city between Paris and Marseille, and conveniently close to St. Etienne, would have been probably the most logical place in France for a St. Etienne gunmaker to establish a presence--other than Paris.

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Hi Raimey,
My sources say that "Verney jeune" in Lyon was a remote cousin to the St Etienne family, and that the firms are unrelated.
I can't easily find S.H. et Cie.
The fact that VC did not get a prize does not mean that they did not do any (barrels). There were many more barrel makers than the ones listed in the prize list (and very good ones at that)
As for the top lever stop, it might be explained by the fact that the Helice lockup system was adjustable for wear, and that hitting the stop meant that the adjustment had to be redone.
Best regards,
WC-

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Raimey, Wildcattle, L. Brown and Doverham, I have some information to report of the VC gun in question that I learned today from an Englishman that trained at Purdey for 20 years and is now living in Ozark, Missouri. I took the VC gun to him to have the rear trigger adjusted (locks and cocking rods are gold plated), he stated that VC did have an office in Liege many, many years ago. While I cannot document this in print, I thought it was pertinent. He also said that the "JT" as stamped on one barrel stands for Jean Thonnard and I assume he was the barrel maker.
Know that this is all hearsay and not documented but thought I would share it.
Paul

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Thanks Paul and the mechanic probably made the JT relationship at Peter's site. Joseph Thonon, Jules Thonon, maybe another J. Thonon would also be in the running. Jean Thonnard may have contributed some effort but just from the Jno. Hy. Andrew & Co. LTD Toledo Steel Works Sheffield tubes, it would seem that Fernand Thonon had a close association with the Jno. Hy. Andrew & Co. LTD Toledo Steel Works Sheffield tube source or he may have been the outlet.

French patent #255210 issuing protection for Société Verney-Carron frères for a 4 point lockup may be the origins of Société Verney-Carron frères' platform. It was issued in April 1896 and ran for 15 years.

Then the toplever stop aspect looks to have origins in 1924, although it could have been earlier:


Société Verney-Carron frères Helice - Nr. 577296 of 1924

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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I'm somewhat perplexed by the wide girth given to Société Verney-Carron frères for being whole. I will acknowledge that at the turn of the 20th century V-C was looking for corrosion resistant tube steel and provided input to some steel concern and I assume that to be Joseph Holtzer. But it was seem that their post WWII or post 1960s ability has attached a bias to their pre-WWII status. V-C wanted to turn out world renown wares and I would be hesitant to say that they did not procure the best of the best effort for their tubesets. So if V-C is not receiving prizes for their tube efforts, would they not want to source a tube maker who has received such accolades? The tubes are at the nucleus or core for the sporting weapon platform. At the turn of the century it appears that Société Verney-Carron frères - St. Etienne was real chummy with Zavattero freres(Louis & Joanny) and they filed for at least one joint patent. Just from these type side ventures one would tend to believe that V-C was either sourcing, cross-sourcing or being sourced. For the moment I am not sure of the relationship but it would seem that Zavattero freres facility was a possibility( usine à Saint Bonnet le Château).

"Verney jeune" in Lyon advertised as Verney - Carron or Verney Carron et Compagnie, correct? So could it be that Verney-Carron et Cie à Lyon has it origins from the 1620s and Société Verney-Carron frères has its origins from 1820? Verney-Carron et Cie à Lyon did indeed sourced Liege like craftsmen like Lebeau and others I'm sure. And for a second I would begin to think that Verney-Carron et Cie à Lyon was the concern that registered with the Liege proofhouse, but that possibility quickly disappears and I am back to Société Verney-Carron frères as surely there was some close working relationship between Société Verney-Carron frères & Verney-Carron et Cie à Lyon as the two concerns essentially have the same name. Confusion is even evident today, and what about trademark issues and other related? It would seem that Société Verney-Carron frères embraces the confusion as they can pen their history as they see fit. Then Paul's example has the term VECAR which was a trademark of Société Verney-Carron frères and used on their letterhead. 1960s adverts tend to suggest that both Société Verney-Carron frères & Verney-Carron et Cie à Lyon were under the same umbrella.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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Originally Posted By: WildCattle
Hi Raimey,
As for the top lever stop, it might be explained by the fact that the Helice lockup system was adjustable for wear, and that hitting the stop meant that the adjustment had to be redone.
Best regards,
WC-


The top lever on my ca. 1950s version does not engage the stop, even with a crisp closing, but can be pushed over to contact the stop once the gun is closed. I wouldn't want to hazard a guess if the action was put back on face at some point in the past.


Such a long, long time to be gone, and a short time to be there.
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To adjust for wear, remove pins 20 and 22 in the patent picture under the action bottom plate and turn #21.
Best regards,
WC-

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Just ran across another French double with a top lever stop. Not marked V-C, nor "Helice", nor any of the other variations of "Helice". Matter of fact, not marked at all with a maker's name. Single St. Etienne proof, 3-digit serial number. 16ga, 65mm chambers, barrels of "acier superieur". Very basic gun, but in nice shape. A true French "no-namer", or guild gun as we choose to call them. French guns are always problematic to date, and nothing on this one to give any very good clues. But I would guess between the wars.

Re V-C in Lyon, the 1922 catalog does not list a "depot" in Lyon. It does list one in Paris, and in fact every page, at the top, has either the St. Etienne address or the Paris address (Angle Place de la Bourse). The 1934 catalog uses the same format: pages alternating between the St. Etienne address at the top, or the Paris address (now 37, Rue Vivienne) plus an address for a Lyon "depot": 8, Rue des Archers.

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Larry;
Do you know if this gun has wear compensation built in. Two of the three doubles which I have do not. On the third one (Lefever Side Pivot Lever) the compensation is separate from the lever so on all three the levers would have come to center when new. They never started to the right.


Miller/TN
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Miller, I'll have to look again. A friend has it, so I'll check next time I'm at his place.

As for Societe Verney-Carron, it could not possibly go back to 1620 with that name. The company only became Verney-Carron when Claude Verney married Antoinette Carron in 1830. She was the daughter of a gunmaking family, and it was at that point that Claude Verney made the name change from Verney to Verney-Carron.

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