doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com German needle fire

One of my customers came down to the shooting ground today with this gun � which I hadn�t seen the like of before. It would appear to be a needle fire, probably of German origin.
At first sight the mechanism, which is self cocking, looks similar to the darn in that as you move the under lever the barrels slide forward � but as they pass the end of the securing pin they then tip forward.
It is obviously a gun of high quality and the owner must have been gutted when only a few years after it was made it was rendered obsolete by the centre fire cartridges. This might explain why the gun is in such good condition � I would describe it as almost unfired condition.
There are no proof marks but I have photographed the engraving as best I could. As you see some of it is around the circular section of the action which is not too easy.
If anyone has any information on this the owner would be very pleased to hear about it. He has a collection of over 200 guns, which were collected by his grandfather. His father did not have any interest in them so they stayed in the strong room. It wasn�t till after his death that the present owner had any idea of what was in the strong room. Hopefully I will get the chance to record more of the collection at some time in the future.















I have several more photos of the mechanism if any one is interested.
John

Right off, I don't remember exactly who Rudolph Berger's, Koethen/C�then, Wallstra�e 19, is related to Constanz Berger & Carl/Karl Ludwig Berger of Wittener Stahl.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Constanz_Berger

But I'd say that it was made of Wittener steel and is the basis for the Dreyse-Berger-F�rst Pless-Teschner-Collath variant. Plenty of info here:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post316793

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post294400

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post265283

Yes, I'd like to see the contraption.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

The barrels are held on by one screw through a slot.



Turning the handle rotates a cam which engages the underside of the barrels and pushes them back and forwards.



Once the barrels have moved far enough forward that they disengage from the rod they can drop down on the slot.







Opening the gun automatically cocks the firing mechanism. The �bolt�, if that is the correct term, protrudes from the back of the action and acts as a cocking indicator. The two lugs you see here can be drawn back and rotated locking the bolts and acting as safety catches. I am not sure how the cocking mechanism operates but it looks like the bolts work in a similar way to a rifle bolt but without the handle. The trigger pulls were very crisp.



The firing needle can be seen here, partially withdrawn as the breech is opened.



The hand grip and trigger guard seem to have been made out of some kind of horn.

I believe the barrels are Damas Anglais Coupe', Gebrochener Englischer Damast, or Combination Damascus.

H. Needler 12b percussion double

What are we looking at date wise - I guess needle fire became obsolete around 1860 - so are we looking at 1830 - 1850's?

No, his patent date was circa 1860 and I can't find it in the U.S. of A. so I wonder if it was Britain as Germany's patent protection began in 1877. If I'm not mistaken, Berger and the Boys kept fitting and retro-fitting these type actions till say 1890.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I've just found this:

http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/11955570_dreyse-cartridge-collath-style-shotgun-by-berger

maybe it's the gun.....? ;-)

(of course it isn't)

Regards,
Wolfgang

Seems Rudolf/Rudolph Berger may have had a brother named Samuel. If so, they had some joint partnership venture. He won some award in London in 1862. Liege was the source for his pattern welded tubes and may have employed up to 15 mechanics and yearly production was around 35 sporting weapons.


1859 Patent


1860 patent



1862 listing for Rudolph/Rudolf Berger, Hofb�chsenmacher Sr. Hoheit des Herzogs von Anhalt und Sr. Majest�t des K�nigs von Preussen, C�then


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,

very interesting the prices Doublegun 85 Thaler, Doublerifle 75 Thaler and the new needle fire 95 Thaler !! And three different types of Damast!!!

Do you have some more of this, I like to read it.

Regards,
Wofgang

Wofgang - all three are high quality ie. expensive Damascus: Leclerc, Bernard, and Better Quality Turkish







What I believe to be Leclerc on a Lefever Optimus