doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com German Stalking Rifle - What is It?

I have had this rifle for several years but never explored it. I think it is 8.15 x 46N. Has a Weaver scope (not German scope). Heavy octagon barrel. See photos below. Soon I will post additional photos of the proof and other markings. Just wondering what you experts know about this type of gun in general. Looking forward to benefitting from your knowledge and experience.

From what you've posted, it is a post 1912 Z-M sourced stalker/target arm with a Hogback style stock/butt(Schweinsr�cken akin to Schie�stock usw.??) and a German stecher.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I sure would like to find its sister, I do like my single shots for deer hunting and that one is very nice.

popple:

Scour the web for a Sauer Hahnlose Tell-B�chse. They seem to crop up quite often.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

The date marking is 10/36....yes....post 1912. What is significant about 1912 in this context? Start of WWI hostilities? What?

Is a "stecher" a double set trigger?

So it's a Merkel..... (Z-M).

I make brass for the 8.15 out of 30-30 cases.
They sure are fun to shoot.

Mike

popplecop,
The Sauer Tell rifle Raimey mentioned is not the same as texasjacks rifle, but is similar and chambered for similar cartridges(30-30 headsize & smaller).I believe Simpson Ltd. has a Tell for sale now, look under "Long guns"and then "other Manufacturers".
If anyone is interested, there is an article about 8.15x46R in "WAIDMANNSHEIL", one of the German Gun Collectors Assn.publications.
Texasjack
I reccomend you make or have someone make a chamber cast. The 8.15x46R is one of those rifles that seem to have been rechambered very often, sometimes to cartridges that may damage the rifle.Skeetx is right about this being a "fun" cartridge.
Mike

More photos attached below.

Texasjack,
Can you show photos of the proofmarks under the barrel,they will likely show caliber and date of proof.
Mike

Ford, it may have be unintentionally inferred, but I did not state that the Sauer Tell and the one of topic were the same. The probability of locating a Sauer Tell in much, much higher that some oddball Zella Sankt Blasii - Mehlis contraption. The one of topic was a pricepoint variant sourced from a Zella Sankt Blasii-Mehlis maker who must have hung out his shingle in the late 1920s. So no, not made by Merkel. It was proofed in the final state.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Texasjack,

your question what happened in 1912:

1912 Einf�hrung im April: des Krone + N (Nitro) beim Beschussamt.

that means proofstamp Crown over N (Nitro Proof) was introduced for the first time at the Suhl Proofhouse.

For The Gun: I hold a sister of yours in my hands! A gunmaker in Bochum, Germany built it with original parts he bought from a liquidation in Suhl. I will ask him which maufacturer. Pics of The " Sister" will follow on Monday. Very nice, je made a full stock of nice wood and a sleeve barrel Cal. 30.30 !!!

Gunwolf

Would seeing those require removal of the forearm wood? (Otherwise I see no markings on the underside of the barrel.)

Yes!

Gunwolf

True the new proof rules(not law) were initiated in Suhl in April but being a bit picky the Z-M proof rules were adopted on September 1st, 1911. I think it was September.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Gunwolf, please post pics of the "sister"!

OK will do. (I sure do dread unscrewing those beautiful engraved German screws...I will try to be careful!)

TexasJack

Stop, I thought It has a removable forearm ...Please wait!

Gunwolf

Most examples attach the forend iron/wood via a small screw into a spot on the tube.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Yea, this would be OK.

Gunwolf

Proof markings under the wood forearm follow. And the interpretations are: _________________________?

What looks to be ALH with a script L in a shield/crown?

1st guess would be August Louis Hengelhaupt of Z-M and I would attach a high probability for this mechanics. There also was a Arthur Otto Hein, but that doesn't fit. MM is also common for the period and it could represent Max M�ller, a Z-M tube maker during this time.

Experienced proof in Z-M in October 1936.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

The action and the barrel do not seem to have the same serial number. Do you agree? Is this a drawback?

What caliber is this rifle? Is it indeed 8.15x46N? The markings do not make it clear. I believe it IS 8.15x46N. I have 20 rounds of 8.15x46N and it fits perfectly into the chamber. Opinions?

I see a 2788 on the frame and a 669 on the tube. Are there any other numbers on the frame? The 29 is probably an assembly number. Only way to know the chamber for sure is to do a chamber cast & slug the bore. The round utilized a 11 gram lead bullet.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Instead of just getting opinions, why not make a chamber cast and then you'll know for sure.
Steve

Texasjack,
The caliber is 8.15x46R(unless rechambered),as shown by the marks 7.6 and 46. The bore diameter(not groove or bullet)of 7.6mm is common in ihis caliber, even though it is very tight. One of mine is so marked and it has a groove diameter of .312". My cousin also has one,his with .3125" grooves.The express type bullets used in factory ammo is .324", but made so as not to elevate the pressure significantly. The case length is shown as 46mm, they didn't mark the "R".The rifle was proofed in the 10th month of 1936 as shown by the 1036.The number under this is the ledger number.As Raimey said, it was proofed in Zella-Mehlis, and they marked ledger numbers, while Suhl didn't.Since you have 8.15 ammo, it won't be necessary to make a chamber cast. Just fire it and the fired case will tell you if it has been rechambered.You should, however, slug the bore to verify the groove diameter.Unless you can find factory type bullets,you should either use jacketed bullets to fit,or cast bullets a couple thousanths over.You may use oversize bullets if they will easily go into a fired/unsized case. I hope this helps.
Mike

Mike F. Thanks for this valuable information. Below is the ad for the ammo I bought several years ago. The rifle was sold to me as 8.15x46R. I bought ammo. It fits in the chamber perfectly. This is probably the right round for this rifle. What do you mean by "slug the bore" before shooting it? (Sorry to be such an amateur, I admit it, but learning fast!)

Texasjack,

here are the pics of the "sister":

[img]http://www.hunting-heritage.com/Apel-Stutzen/large-1.html[/img]


[img]http://www.hunting-heritage.com/Apel-Stutzen/large-2.html[/img]

[img]http://www.hunting-heritage.com/Apel-Stutzen/large-3.html[/img]
Nice gun, isn!t it?

[img]http://www.hunting-heritage.com/Apel-Stutzen/large-4.html[/img]

Still waiting for the answer of the Gunmaker...!

Gunwolf

Gunwolf, I still do not know. In the responses above it is speculated that this might be one af many guns assembled from parts left after a gunmaker went out of business. There is no maker stamping/marking on the rifle.

Texasjack,

may be! Let's wait for the answer of the Gunmaker I asked.

Gunwolf

From above you write:

For The Gun: I hold a sister of yours in my hands! A gunmaker in Bochum, Germany built it with original parts he bought from a liquidation in Suhl. I will ask him which maufacturer.

Look forward to hearing the answer....thanks

Texasjack,
To slug the bore,drive a round lead ball into the barrel, drive it back out, then measure it with a micrometer or caliper. BTW a rechambered 8.15x46R will still accept a 8.15x46R cartridge.

Gunwolf,Texasjack,
This type action was seemingly made for the "trade"(actual maker not known to me)and sold to gunsmiths/dealers all over.They were built up according to the ideas of the builder or desires of the customer.The ones w/o name were usually sold to dealers who could have them marked with what ever name they wanted, but resold w/o a name being marked.I have seen them from pre WW1 to WW2.They may have a simple pin for hingepin or a screw, or a fixed hingepin like a shotgun.I have seen forearms attached by a screw,a wedge, or a latch.Safety may be a greener type, or "thumb type", which may work forward or backward.They almost always have double set triggers, but could have a single set trigger.Engraving is from almost non-existent to ornate.They may or maynot be scoped.Both of yours seem to have been restocked and Gunwolf's seems to have been relined.I have seen more chambered for 8.15x46R or 9.3x72R; but they are seen also in 8x57R/360,8x48/58R,6.5x48/58R,6.5x52R(25-35 win), 5.6x52R(22 Sav.HP),5.6x35R vierling(22WCF) or 5.6x36R(22 Hornet).They were not considered to be very strong actions as shown by the cartridges they were chambered for.This is why rechambering can lead to problems.Is everyone confused yet?
Mike

Texasjack,

I've got the answer and it confirmed what Der Ami said. This system was often made by the Suhler Gunmakers either on mutual basis or as "industrial" parts from Sauer&Sohn

Texasjack,

I've got the answer and it confirmed what Der Ami said. This system was often made by the Suhler Gunmakers either on mutual basis or as "industrial" parts from Sauer & Sohn. Maybe more details are available from the Waffenmuseum Suhl, Mr. Peter Dannecker, Mail: peter.dannecker@gmail.com. As I think this has to be a good source for details about Suhl gunmaking.

Der Ami,

it`s not mine but yes, it is relined and restocked!

Gunwolf

A further nice example:

http://egun.de/market/item.php?id=4405499

Kind Regards,
Wolfgang

This is a nice rifle,in a decent caliber, but I doubt the date of 1940. By this time, I think they had stoped making rifles in several old calibers,including 9.3x72R(Herman Goering's personal opinions were given great deference).They didn't show the marks,maybe it was made earlier and finished/sold in 1940, or maybe rebuilt and reproofed then. It would make a neat little Whitetail rifle.
Mike

Mike,

they wrote 1940? Probably you are right. I've asked for pictures of the proof stamps, hope they will answer...

Wolfgang

Wolfgang,
If you can correspond with them,buy it.I would be good on Reh also.
Mike

Mike,

I won't buy it, but indeed it is a good caliber for Rehwild.

Texasjack,

only a small detail: the stock is a so called
Buckelschaft not only a Schweinsr�ckenschaft.
Especially made for aiming with scope.

Regards,
Wolfgang