doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Verney-Carron Helicobloc

I owned a V-C true sidelock with the Helicobloc markings. When I contacted V=C about a manufacturing date, they indicated that their records were lost in a flood and they could not help me. When I had some work done on the gun, the gunsmith told me that the gun had British made Braiser (spelling?) locks. V-C makes nice double shotguns in addition to their double rifles. The importer is KEBCO at info@kebcollc.com

The term used for the images shown in the 1922 V-C catalog is "micrographies", which I translated as Xrays. Not sure the same word exists in English. It's what you see through a microscope. But in any case, a very close look at the composition of the steel used in V-C barrels. And I think we can take it to the bank, given the direct references to Holtzer steel, that that was indeed the source V-C was using as of 1922--whether they made the barrels themselves or whether Holtzer made them.

There is absolutey no question that V-C makes barrels now, and has for quite some time in the post-WWII era. I'd agree with Raimey that it's not entirely clear when they started doing that.

Following this w/some interest since its is a subject we've hashed & bashed before and each time a bit more information surfaces about these V.C. & 'helice grip' guns.

I'm thinking the better answer to the one that Paul has may be to try & ascertain who the initials belonged to. Could the gun have been made for one of the company owners or a director? Would that be reason for it to not have been on the books & thus not numbered? Does the crown depicted have any particular country affiliation or is it rather a mark denoting the build quality as opposed to grade? Could royalty order a gun specifically not to be serial numbered? What happened during German occupation? Could a pair of high quality guns been built off the books?

If one assumes it was built for royalty & was a pigeon gun, then ..

I have no idea if they still exist or not, but any records of the shooters who attended Monte Carlo during the days when it was THE top flyer shoot might be a good place to start looking into the possible owners identity. I know Bill Wise was trying to collect any European Grand Prix flyer shoot data he could find and he shared some of that w/me years ago. I know he had some programe copies from Monte Carlo shoots, but don't recall that he ever sourced any rosters. Perhaps the country itself has some records that could be sourced? If so, would they show not only who, but what guns they brought with them for the competitions? Would the customs records still be intact for persons coming into Monte Carlo with their 'pig' guns? Certainly there was a lot of gun history there prior to Grace Kelley becoming a princess. Just some idle thots here gentlemen, but its a dif path one might pursue. It could make a good article anyway. I'll not ride this tangent further.

Best, tw

I've done "micrographies" a million years ago. One needs to polish a steel sample post heat treatment with increasingly fine grit until diamond dust is used. Then the sample is looked at under a microscope. Absolutely no X ray is used or needed. The pictures certainly match what I remember of that process.

My gut feeling is that V-C was making at least some of their barrels, from rough tubes. The "exposition universelle" report certainly infers this, as it describes the type of preferred rough forging.
Of course I have no hard proof.
Such a hard proof will be quasi impossible to get 100 years after the facts and one or two major conflicts. One will have to rely mostly on hear-say and its lack of definitiveness...

Best regards,
WC-

I do not subscribe to this school of thought as the information is out there & it is just a matter of time before the info is discovered or is scanned and located. I consider this to be taking the easy way out. When I have some time I will make some enroads. I enjoy blasing a new trail.

I too was very skeptical of X-Ray devices in 1922. But the images I posted were directly from Jacob Holtzer circa 1902. Notice that the magnification was in diameters.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

1900 Mines & Metal Expo info

All info suggests that H.A. Brustlein was the key to Jacob Holtzer's success in alloys.

http://books.google.com/books?id=JCfyAAA...ein&f=false

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

A letter I received from V-C in 1992, concerning the first V-C gun I owned (an Helice 33 16ga), stated that their records were lost during WWII. However, they were as helpful to me as they could be, providing copies of pages from their 1933 catalog which included the basic information on my gun.

Joseph Brazier & Sons - The Ashes Works 1871 Advert

I'd like to see the pairing of the V-C Helicobloc & Brazier locks.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Flipping thru a few pages of the internet I found:


Berthon Fr�res- tubes stamped - Acier Arquebusier Cap JF - which in my mind is Joseph Cap - Jean Falla

I wonder if the initials BF in a rhombus, etc. are for:
Berthon Fr�res

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=276179&page=all

Where does Canons Gallia fit into the equation?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

"Berthon Freres" was active from 1893 to 1922.
Their catalog included the "Helice-elite" (sic) brand and the "Gallia" brand.
"Gallia" is of course a play on the Latin name for what France was way back...
The preceding structure was "Martin Gerest" and the following one was "Laspoussas Berthon" followed in '23 by "Laspoussas & Driol". The "Berthon freres" brand could have survived until the 1950s...
Best regards,
WC-

(Not too bad uh???)