doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Verney-Carron Helicobloc

Larry, Raimey and Doverham, what is the verdict on the provenance on this "guild gun" proofed in Belgium?

From what I am hearing, is it a VC action (in the white) with Toledo steel tubes that was assembled, stocked, and proofed in Belgium? It has no serial number (a real mystery to me) and is obviously high quality, which tells me it had to be made by someone with connections to VC and Belgium that knew what he was doing. Being gun # 1 of a pair and with the initials inlaid in gold on the trigger guard tells me it went to a man of considerable means and influence who could probably get any gun he wanted, but of course, did not want to spend the money for engraving, or for a name brand gun.

While at the Southern S x S event in NC this past April, a Belgium engraver looked at this gun and said it was done by the same company (person) that made the Jules Bury action. I was not present when this guy looked at the VC gun but several dealers were present. His interest was to buy it, engrave it and then resell, of course.


Thanks to all that have tried to help with the history of the gun.

Paul

Paul, I come down in favor of VC action but not a VC gun. No "Verney Carron" on the gun elsewhere and no SN pretty much tells me it wasn't anything that came out of their operation in St. Etienne, even without taking into account the Belgian-proofed barrels. Did something happen to the original barrels and those are replacements? That's a possibility. I have difficulty getting my head around a gun of that quality--let alone a pair of guns, assuming #2 matches this one perfectly--with no SN, no maker's name, and the anomaly of the odd barrels.

I've seen a number of non-VC guns built on Helice-system actions, marked with some version of "Helice" and no maker's name. But they've all carried St. Etienne proof, and I haven't seen any of the quality of this one. Might some maker in Belgium have purchased some VC actions? Perhaps. But I think I'd be more inclined to go with someone in Belgium fitting high quality replacement barrels to a VC action. That's about as good as I can do based on the evidence at hand.

I think you have a very well-made and unique gun. I really can't offer a qualified opinion - but if it were mine, I don't think I would be concluding it was a V-C.

A friend last year found an absolutely stunning Belgian-made sxs with no makers name - this gun had every attribute of a "best" gun. He bought it for $5k and if it had had Francotte or Lebeau marks on it, the gun could have sold for 4x that amount, easily. Buy the gun and not the maker . . . .

In what would be an Ockham's Razor scenario, in that the simplest answer is that it is a quality V-C type frame with what was considered for some reason at the time to be an upper rung tubeset, which I wouldn't define as odd or as a non-original set. Many of the Paris retailer's examples for the period wear Jno. Hy. Andrew Toledo Steel from reasons unknown. The frame is unadorned, unmarked, and along with the tubeset reeks of quality. Might be some maker's mark on the inside of the locks to point to sourcing. I would term it that you have a Belgian Tradegun based on a V-C type platform.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

On V-C making tubes, I find that very difficult to believe pre-WWII. But post WWII, the probability is quite high. When a makers touts steel types, it is more than likely propaganda as a advertising campaign for some steel concern's wares. I'm not sure regarding the French steel concerns, but the most of the German makers, less Krupp I think, paid a royalty to Heinrich Ehrhardt for his 1891 Ehrhardt'schen Pre�- und Ziehverfahren, where he patented a process to form and stretch cavities/tubes under compression, for the right to use his technology. Erhardt, Witten and others utilized this technology early on for their tubes. I'm sure a rough tube would me much easier to convert for a sporting weapon, but info strongly suggests that in fact they did make tubes, my next question would be in what form did they acquire the raw materials, bar stock or tube cavity/rough tube?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Can't tell you in what form the tubes arrived Raimey, but it's clear from the V-C catalog that the steel came from the Jacob Holtzer firm in the Loire Valley. The information I can find on Holtzer (in French) indicates they made barrels. Weren't Breuil and Bernard making barrels prior to WWII? In Bernard's case, if not Breuil's, prior to WWI? So why not V-C?

Very odd, IMO, that a gun of this quality has no SN. V-C, as early as 1922, was selling guns by other makers: Browning A-5's and handguns, for example. But no non-V-C side by sides. And the only barrel steels they mention, other than "acier comprime", are diamond steel and 3 different types of Holtzer steel.

Thanks to all for your contribution. I am sending the gun to JJ Perdeou for a good cleaning and will ask him to inspect the locks for markings and if he finds them, will post new information.

You are not comparing apples to apples. True, Breuil and Bernard were tube makers. But V-C was closer to a retailer of weapons and related haberdashery. Firearms merhants/retailers, for the most part, lie, lie & lie of theirs wares just like a used car salesman or GPS salesman. They cannot tell the truth and their catalogues are for entertainment or self lauding. Again, I would say show me the ledgers noting in-house tube sourcing; indicate how they received tubes or bar stock or show the inventory of equipment & I'd like to see a Pratt & Whitney machine or Ludwig Loewe. In fact, I'd entertain the idea if V-C had a barrel machine by the French concern Barriquand & Marre. An answer to just one would point toward tube production. But if they did not have the machinery they could not make the tubes. It is as simple as that. It is easy to say they did not as the burden of proof lies with stating that they did make tubes. I only have a cursory review of the Jacob Holtzer concern, but being one of the few that I do not know like back of hand, I will rectify that. Sporting arms steel was such a small percentage of the overall production that it is difficult to find much info. But when a steel maker speaks of steel barrels, almost always it refers to cannon or big guns.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I think you're a bit off target, Raimey, and perhaps showing some Belgian prejudice here. (We'll have to start a thread of Belgian jokes, which the French love to tell.) You seem to be putting V-C in the same category as Gastine Rennette, or some of the other Paris "makers", that mostly retailed guns sold by others. Indeed, V-C's 1922 catalog does list guns made by others--clearly specifying that they were made by others. But V-C also invented and patented the "Helice" locking system, which probably ranks closely--in the world of French doubles--to the Scott spindle in the British trade. A lot of St. Etienne guns not made by V-C used it. Their catalog refers to specialization in "the production and sale of hunting guns", and it shows numerous V-C models. Boxlock, sidelock, hammer and hammerless.

And if V-C barrel steel--whether they made the barrels or not--did not come from Jacob Holtzer, I find it hard to understand why they would advertise that as their source. As for Holtzer, the firm had 1,500 workers in 1897, so we're not talking about some small outfit. Did they make barrels or simply produce the steel that went into barrels? Impossible to tell from what I've been able to find in French, which states that they did make "canons". Unfortunately, that word means both barrels and artillery pieces.

When JJ Perdeou takes the gun apart, it would not surprise me to see the mark of Britte Bros. somewhere, like on the ejector or ?. Their mark is found on guns of many European countries.