|
S |
M |
T |
W |
T |
F |
S |
|
|
|
|
1
|
2
|
3
|
4
|
|
5
|
6
|
7
|
8
|
9
|
10
|
11
|
|
12
|
13
|
14
|
15
|
16
|
17
|
18
|
|
19
|
20
|
21
|
22
|
23
|
24
|
25
|
|
26
|
27
|
28
|
29
|
30
|
31
|
|
|
|
0 members (),
1,094
guests, and
7
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Forums10
Topics38,513
Posts545,667
Members14,419
| |
Most Online1,344
Apr 29th, 2024
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,373 Likes: 6
Sidelock
|
OP
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,373 Likes: 6 |
My French is very rusty, but V-C appears to have had a lot of makers copying their 4-point lock-up action and successfully filed suit in 1914 to enforce their patent. It is interesting that 6 pages of their catalog address in various ways their patent and the repeated attempts of others to copy their lockup. Imitation is the sincerest of flattery.
Last edited by Doverham; 05/14/13 10:45 AM.
Such a long, long time to be gone, and a short time to be there.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,381 Likes: 106
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,381 Likes: 106 |
And a lot more people did copy it once the patent expired, as Claude Verney-Carron indicated in his letter to me. There are plenty of French shotguns out there marked with some takeoff on the "Helice" name but not marked Verney-Carron.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,373 Likes: 6
Sidelock
|
|
OP
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,373 Likes: 6 |
There seem to be some interesting parallels with this story and the A&D patent disputes. I understand V-C lost most (all?) of their historical records in a flood (I think you told me that, Larry). That is a shame because I bet there is an interesting story to be told that would shed some light on the French gunmaking industry - which remains overshadowed by its English and Continental competitors (at least here in the US).
Of course, losing a couple of world wars does nothing to fortify your national reputation for gun-making, either . . . .
Such a long, long time to be gone, and a short time to be there.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,816 Likes: 194
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,816 Likes: 194 |
Hum, so with the subject sporting weapon, do we or do we not meet the criteria for a V-C version?
And if I understand correctly, all Helicobloc VERCAR V-C have the toplever stop?
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,373 Likes: 6
Sidelock
|
|
OP
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,373 Likes: 6 |
Raimey - the lack of any other V-C marks on the gun would make me suspicious. The other V-Cs I have seen have VerCar, an overlapping VC or similar proprietary markings on the water table and/or the outside of the action, as well as the barrels (though the latter obviously could not be the case here). Is it possible that this action left the V-C factory in the white (except for the top lever which had already been marked with the proprietary information) and was finished and proofed in Liege with Belgian barrels? I also think that Larry's comment about V-C being a noted barrel maker who supplied barrels to others warrants some consideration. Lots of strange things seem to happen in this business, particularly during the disruption of a world war or two. The gun looks very well-finished and certainly does not appear to be a lunch box project. Maybe someone hired a local but very skilled gunsmith (former V-C employee living in Belgium?) to make a custom gun, and he sourced and assembled the parts from his various connections in the trade. Or perhaps you have unearthed the French version of the Frederick Scales gun 
Such a long, long time to be gone, and a short time to be there.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,816 Likes: 194
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,816 Likes: 194 |
Personally I think the possibility of V-C making tubes is Horse biscuits. Show me the ledger where they sourced steel bars 4" in diameter & say 15 - 18" long from specific steel makers? They probably didn't have any more tools that a handful of bastard files. I'll bet my hat that they made zero(0) Jno. Hy. Andrew Toledo Steel tubes. I have a difficult time believing anything a maker says about itself without some external inputs to confirm. For some reason the Andrew's Toledo Steel tubesets were revered. I doubt anyone less a master mechanic could have sourced them.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,816 Likes: 194
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,816 Likes: 194 |
Show me the ledgers, an image of a hammerforge or noise complaints against said maker??? Otherwise, what if I told you that France, Germany, Italy, etc. all sourced the mechanics in Liege. It was all was about the Benjamins. Guess I should include the makers from the Little British Isles also?
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,816 Likes: 194
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,816 Likes: 194 |
If V-C didn't source a Belgian mechanic for tubes, my guess that either Ronchard-Siauve or Ronchard-Cizeron would be next in-iine.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,373 Likes: 6
Sidelock
|
|
OP
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,373 Likes: 6 |
Verney-Carron has added some historical information to their website since I last checked it out, which does seem to suggest their expertise in barrel-making was a later development: At the end of the First World War, the decision was taken to set up a proper factory. This new operation, undertaken in 1926, allowed the employees and equipment of another manufacturer, Auguste MARZE, to be assimilated into Verney-Carron. Owing to the large investment required to finance the new factory, the financial resources of the family and the friends of the two businesses, were invested in the new Verney-Carron S.A.
The great crash of 1929 and the depression that followed prevented this new company from reaching its full potential. As a result, it was decided to gradually changeover from a direct sales operation into a manufacturing company selling through a network of firearms retailers. It was during this period that the publication of a yearly company catalogue enabled it to add the production and sale of firearm accessories and hunting equipment to its firearm manufacturing sales. Starting in 1936, Verney-Carron added fishing and tennis equipment distribution, and bicycle manufacturing to its business portfolio. This diversification helped the company to survive the difficult years of World War II.
Claude Verney-Carron died in 1941. At the end of World War II, his son Jean, with the support of Auguste Marze, undertook the task of rebuilding a company with a depleted work force and obsolescent equipment. He succeeded in assembling, under the name "Groupement d'Exploitation des Fabricants d'Armes Réunis (GEFAR), six manufacturers, all of whom all contributed their own resources. Over 150,000 firearms were manufactured, despite competition from the national arsenals, most of them under the brand name "Pionnier [Pioneer]" adopted by Verney-Carron.
Claude Verney-Carron, the son of Jean, joined the business in 1948. He encountered the representative of a little known Italian manufacturer, which had just completed the development of a very light semi-automatic hunting shotgun. A license for the manufacture of this product was signed in 1954, marking a new turning point in the history of the firm. In effect, Verney-Carron entered into the era of modern industrial production.
Jean Verney-Carron died is 1961. Albert de Veron de La Combe, nephew of Auguste Marze, assumed control along with Claude and Henri, Jean's sons. SIFARM (a combination of the venerable manufacturers Berthon Frères, Francisque Darne, Didier-Drevet, Gerest and Ronchard-Cizeron) was absorbed in 1963, along with the famous Canonnerie (Barrel makers) Jean Breuil. Verney-Carron now effectively controlled all its manufacturing, and Henri Verney-Carron, Technical Director, fully mastered the secrets of barrel-making. He decided to abandon earlier techniques, putting in place modern processes and installing efficient new equipment, thus producing barrels ranking among the best in the world.
Such a long, long time to be gone, and a short time to be there.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,381 Likes: 106
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,381 Likes: 106 |
Raimey, I don't think anyone is suggesting that V-C made that PARTICULAR set of barrels. In their 1922 catalog, the only name attached to the steel used in their barrels (other than "diamond steel") is Jacob Holtzer. Jacob Holtzer's factory, according to the V-C catalog, was located in the Loire basin--which would put it some distance outside Belgium. It's not quite clear whether V-C made the barrels, because information on Holtzer indicates that they did make barrels. However, V-C certainly hints at making barrels, using Holtzer steel, in their 1922 catalog:
"In the production of barrels for our best guns, we use the four following qualities (of steel): . . . " They do go into great length discussing barrel steel in that catalog, and touting the superiority of theirs compared to other makers.
Last edited by L. Brown; 05/15/13 07:58 AM.
|
|
|
|
|
