doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Lightest pumpgun ever made?

My education here about pre-WWII pumpguns prompted me to Google the above question. The answer ( discovered in the usual round-a-bout internet fashion), was Ithaca(!) and their English Ultra Feather-lite guns. Evidently 16-bores were 6lbs even and the English-stocked 20-bores were something like 5lbs3 with 25-inch vent-rib barrels(!). From my reading, these were made in the 1980s, just before Ithaca ceased production in New York State. Is that correct? Evidently, the receivers were aluminum to help keep the weight down.

That sounds about right. I've had Ithaca 37s that were steel and were 6bls even so the Aluminum guns are probably around 5 and a few ounces. The Remington 31Ls might give them a run for their money. A good friend just picked up a very nice 16 gauge 31L that with a 28" barrel is 5lbs 4oz. A 20 with a 26" barrel (Shooters Exchange has one for sale now) might be 5lbs even.

Model 31s were that light? I'd never heard that before.

I just weighed my M37 English Ultralight. According to a Tryner postal beam scale it weighs in at 4 lbs. 15 oz

My Remington Model 31LA "Standard" Grade 20-gauge is nowhere near that light. More like 5 pounds 12 ounces. In that Remington Model 31 16- and 20-gauges were built on the same frame, like Winchester Model 12 16- and 20-gauges, 16-gauges could be lighter. I know my 1953 vintage 16-gauge 26-inch improved cylinder Model 12 is the lightest Model 12 I own.

Use of mahogany for the stocks accounted for much of the weight savings of the Ithaca Ultra Featherweight.

I had a King's Ferry Ithaca Ultra in 16 gauge. It wasn't lighter than 6lbs, more like 6 1/2, and it definitely did not have a mahogany stock. Stunning walnut, with a pewter (metal) grip cap with a feather on it. Mine had a choke tube, vented rib barrel that didn't save any weight, either. The only guns I know for sure that came with mahogany stocks were the lightweight Remington 1100s from the late 1970s.
Super lightweight pumps aren't all they are cracked up to be. I got a wild hair one day and brought that aluminum framed Ultra to my local club with 75 rounds of some promo 16 gauge low brass ammunition, and wondered what the hell I was thinking when it was all over. The thing beat me senseless. I did sell it for more than double what I paid for it after the King's Ferry operation went under. Garden variety Mossberg 500s or the old Colt/Manufrance "Lasalle" pumps both have aluminum receivers, and stout loads in 12 gauge in either will get your attention after not too many rounds. I have looked for a twenty gauge version of either gun without success, but, I haven't looked real hard-I thought it would be neat to have a French made and proofed pump, especially in 16 gauge.
I have a plain Jane 16 gauge Ithaca model 37, built in 1957, with a 28" plain, modified choke barrel that weighs 6lbs, 4ozs. Very nice handling gun, but, I never go to the club with more than two boxes of ammunition.
Lesson learned.

Best,
Ted

Technically, some .22 rimfire is likely the lightest prewar pump. Among shotguns (gallery .22s, aside) there's the M-42. Prewar fields usually top out at 5# 14oz. They can be as light as 5# 12oz or so.

Of course, not everyone thinks of a .410 as a shotgun....

Sam

I don't think there are any pumps lighter than those Ultras in 20ga. Ithaca may have been thinking grouse and woodcock hunters when they brought them out, and that was a good idea. However, going by statistics from LODGH (the Loyal Order of Dedicated Grouse Hunters), pumps have seen a significant drop in popularity in the last 30 years among grouse hunters. Bad timing.

My 16 ga. 31L with 28" barrel is 5 lbs. 5 oz. My buddy has a 20 ga. Ithaca Ultralight that feels noticeably lighter.

Researcher, how does your 31LA "Standard Grade" differ from the plain 31L?

Jay

That is the way Remington Arms Co., Inc. listed them in the catalogues. The L is for the lightweight version of the Model 31 with the Aeromet receiver and A "Standard" Grade is the grade of the gun. Could also be a Model 31LB "Special" Grade, a Model 31LD "Tournament" Grade, Model 31LE "Expert" Grade or Model 31LF "Premier" Grade. In reality, I've never seen a factory engraved Model 31L but they did catalogue them?

Teddy the Ithaca 37 Ultra Featherweight predates the Kings Ferry guns by a number of years. I purchased mine at the Fort Riley Rod and Gun Club for about $145.00 in about 1979. They all were 20 gauge and came with two options either Improved Cylinder or Modified chokes. Mine had the Modified choke. All had fixed choke 25 inch barrels with vent ribs and a Sid Bell designed pheasant on the grip cap and the stock and forend were definitely mahogany. I wasn't into weighing guns at the time but I know it was the lightest repeating shotgun I had ever picked up and was wonderful for quail and pheasant over my Brittany.

OK, so the lightest guns usually have the aluminum frames? So we're talking the Ithaca Ultra English 20-bore guns as being the absolute bottom at the weight scale (~5lbs), then the Model 31Ls (~5lbs4), then maybe the steel-framed Model 17 (6lbs)? From past conversations here, we also know that the Stevens Model 200 is in the 6lbs range as well. Is there any real handicap in having an aluminum frame verses a steel one? I can see where use at a trap or skeet range would be somewhat foolish, but out on a grouse trail?

Functionally no. The M-16 and it's variations all have aluminum frames. However, I did have a hunting buddy that owned a Franchi Falconet 20 gauge that did develop indentations in the standing breech after being fired a gazillion times. The new steel and titanium breech faces have cured that problem.

Thing about the Ithaca is they are the last of the great pumps still being built the old way in Ohio.

The particular model I was thinking of is called the English Ultra. Looks like that may have been pretty much a standard Ultra but with a straight grip. Produced in the mid-80's, then reintroduced around 2000. Advertised weight: 4 3/4# in 20ga.

My go-to grouse gun, model 17, is 5lbs 14oz but it's not all original as it has a polychoke (25" total barrel length) and the grip was fasioned to a semipistol/POW and the stock extended (had been cut for a kid) and hollowed out. I would think most from the factory were 5 3/4-6 1/2 with the heavier guns being ones with 30" solid rib barrels or dense walnut.

The downside with the Ithaca Ultrafeatherlights was the aluminum trigger gaurd, which with heavy use developed some issues to my understanding. Latter Ultrafeatherlights used steel trigger units and were a little heavier. (based on my sometimes faulty memory)

The Denver Gun Collector Association show starts this coming Thursday, so I'll have lots of fun things to look for. I've seen a few Ithaca Ultras on-line, but none for anything that I would consider reasonable. Always fun to have something to be on the hunt for.

Heck with those old ones Lloyd buy a new one!!
Why, because of those two words that keep appearing over the horizon, steel rated.

watch out fur dem luminum framed pump gons. de sum times cracks win da idiots run de magnum shells tru um...

I looked at the new Ithaca Gun Company web page and they don't list any Ultras. As to old guns, I guess I qualify as a curmudgeon since I already don't think that newer is necessarily better.

Steel shot in the uplands is a whole 'nuther issue that I guess I'm not ready to face just yet. One battle at a time.

A stripped Stevens 200 receiver and trigger guard weigh 1# 8oz together. The receiver alone is 1# 3oz.

I don't know what the weight difference would be if they were aluminum but it would have brought the 6# gun down some.

Shorten the bbl and add a lighter stock wood and it goes still further oz by oz.
The bbl is already thin walled in manufacture.

I'm not sure the design would allow it as the carrier is the locking lug, not unlike a 97.
This one pivots on the large cross pin at the rear of the frame though and I'm just guessing it would batter the alloy out of round quickly. Especially being a 3" chambered gun.

Things can get too light weight too. Unless you're designing an aircraft survival weapon ,,I do like them to still handle nicely and not kick the snot out of me..

The Remington 17 or an early Ithaca 37 in 20ga,,can't argue against either of those choices.

The last time I bought a 'new' from the manufacturer gun was 1971.

Older guns are just more interesting to me. I'm hoping to see examples of some of the early and more-obscure varients at the upcoming Denver show. I'd like to handle a Model 31L and see how it compares to a Model 17 or even an early Model 12. I'm also hoping to get a close look at a Stevens Model 520 sub-gauge gun as well. I suppose it's too much to hope for seeing a Stevens Model 200? I really don't need another pumpgun (as I'm running out of deserving relatives) but I'm having fun learning about this genre of guns.

This will probably come as a news flash to you, but ULTRA FEATHERWEIGHT aluminum receiver model 37s WERE produced at King's Ferry. They came in 12, 16 and 20 gauge. They were light, but not as light as the first generation, since they could and did handle steel shot. All of them are serial numbered with the pre-fix ULT.
Further, a very few ULTRA FEATHERWEIGHT aluminum receiver guns made it out of the Upper Sandusky plant before they were discontinued.
Mine had a walnut stock. If the first generation had a mahogany stock, that fact never seemed to make it into the print adds I saw.
I'll bet Walt would know.

Best,
Ted

Functionally, no, for a while. The M16 does not use an interupted thread to attach the steel barrel to the aluminum receiver. The Ultra Featherweight uses steel threads on the barrel and the receiver mates to them with aluminum threads. Because there is no extension from the barrel to the bolt on the Ithaca design, this interface becomes critical for headspace.

They can and do wear to the point of not being usable. I have not, however, seen or heard of an Ultra cracking with use. That honor goes to the aluminum framed model 31L.

As Tim aluded to, there were also issues with the aluminum trigger guard on the Ultras, as well. The last versions had steel in this area for good reason.


Best,
Ted

Anyone know whether Ithaca ever issued any warnings not to shoot steel through Model 37's? I expect they might have put out what was pretty much SOP re steel shot, especially in the early days of steel: Don't shoot it through full choke guns. But steel loads function within the same pressure parameters as lead, under SAAMI guidelines, so it shouldn't be a pressure issue. And the other likely issue might be a thin barrel, but I don't think that's the case with the 37's. But Browning does say no steel through any of its Belgian-made guns, including A-5's, because of potential ring bulges. So I suppose it's possible Ithaca went with the same precaution on older guns.

Larry, the newer ones built in Ohio are steel rated, I hope I'm not wrong on that. You want a nice sweet little pump look at Ithaca's new 28 gauge with its scaled frame, not to light and not to heavy but a sweet swinging shotgun. And, even though they are a dream to carry all day in the woods, ultra light guns are, to some people, hard to learn how to swing and shoot.

I've never seen anything in print on steel through 37s, Larry, but ownership of Ithaca was in flux when steel was coming on strong. My 12 gauge King's Ferry gun has two barrels and both are 3" chamber, choke tube, steel shot safe. The gun carries like it, too, nobody would think "Featherweight" with this particular copy. I think the model 87s that were produced for a while were steel shot guns also.

A lot of the Ithacas I see have been rode pretty hard and put up wet. I'd bet lots of those specimens have seen steel, for better or worse.

I have shot steel through my Dad's old (1952) Browning A5 standard many times, Larry. But, the original 29" solid rib, full fixed choke barrel was at home, in the safe, when I did it, and a Hastings replacement barrel was in place. I don't think you can get them new anymore, but, if you have to shoot steel through an A5, a Hastings barrel is the way to fly. They turn up on the auction sites regularly. I have two of them for that gun, a 26" vent rib and a 32" vent rib, my Dad was big on versatility.

Best,
Ted

So, there are examples of cracked Model 31Ls? Was this a common failing?

Do you own one of the 28 gauge Ithaca 37s? My wife is showing an interest in at least going along for the walk, and I have thought about unloading a couple of little used pieces to get a copy of that gun. I was thinking of getting two stocks, a short one and a longer one, and both barrel lengths, thinking as my six year old son grows, it could be adapted to him. The recoil from my model 17 can be stout, and my wife weighs 113lbs, the last thing I want to do is start her on a gun that hits her too hard. What hits too hard for me will be different than what hits too hard for her.
Has anyone used one of the 28s from Upper Sandusky?

Best,
Ted

Yup. If you are looking at one, pay particular attention to the area where the barrel meets the receiver. I've never heard of catastrophic failures, but, if I had one that was cracked, I'd quit shooting it.

Best,
Ted

I've read reports of cracks in the area where the magazine tube meets the receiver. Do a Google search on "31L cracks" and you'll find some discussion.

Jay

Ted, their new 28 gauge is perfect for your wife and son. However, be aware and don't ever pick it up and use it because you'll fall in love with it too and they may never see it again!
I love the old Model 37 but sometime they are a little tooo light, these new ones are perfect in weight.

I sure wish Walt would pipe in here.

Mr. Gunflint, I will do just that.

As to weight, the law of diminishing returns applies here as well. You get much under 5 1/2 pounds (empty) and things can get dicey pretty quickly. For grouse hunting, where it's poke and shoot as often as not, lighter isn't as big an issue. But... for any kind of crossing shots, getting a good smooth swing can be a challenge. It's all too easy to just slash through the shot and then check your swing because the gun has very little mass (& therefore, inertia). I am much happier with a loaded gun that weighs somewhere near 6 pounds. And, the longer the barrels at that weight, the better.

Mr. Gunflint: Thank you for that warning! I had no-idea that cracking was such an issue with these guns. Who made the Aeromet receivers, Manufrance?

Lloyd, I've never heard of anyone other than Remington making frames for their guns. Jay

ALL Ithaca 37s post 1950 are steel safe with modified or more open barrels. You can call Les at Diamond Gunsmithing (last of the original Ithaca smiths)to confirm that if it makes you nervous.

I wouldn't sweat the crack that developes on the 31Ls as it is usually by the magazine tube and the ones I've seen have been quite small. I would be shocked if they ever opened up with field loads. Of course this is only my opinion and there has to be someone out there who knows more than I do ;-)

One of my hunting partners owns an Ithaca English Ultra that he bought when they first came out in the '70's. He killed over 500 grouse with it and "retired" it when he felt he had shot it out.
I much prefer the steel frame English guns and still own three of them (2-16ga,1-20ga).
The Kings Ferry plant was a 2 hour drive for me and I've been there on many occasions. They made a Supreme Grade 16ga. English gun for me around 2000. It has since gone down the road simple because I didn't need 3 16ga. Model 37's.
The "problem" with the Ultra's is that they are too light for me. They don't swing well and recoil is a real problem.
The steel receiver guns weigh 6lbs. in 20ga and 6 1/2lbs in 16ga. That's light enough for me.

I now have two 6-lb pumpguns. One is a Model 17 w/the 28-inch tube, and the other is a Model 12 from 1914 w/the 25-inch tube. My 6 1/4-lb pump is a 26-inch tubed 16 bore nickel steel Model 12. Perhaps I'm looking to improve on something that doesn't need to be improved? I'm intriged by the Model 31 lightweights and the Ultra Ithacas, but is there really room for improvement here?

It sounds like the price you pay for a gun lighter than 6lbs is an aluminum receiver that is either prone to cracking and/or wear problems, or is so light as to detract from good handling.

Lloyd,
In the grand scheme of things, few of us here have enough time left to wear out an aluminum receiver pump of the Ithaca 37/Remington model 31 persuation. Further, if you are after a light weight pump, the Mossberg 500 in 20 gauge has an aluminum receiver AND the barrel extension that keeps bad things from happening to pump guns with aluminum receivers. It is also a very lightweight pump gun. They sell them in .410, also. None of us has the time left that would be required to wear one of those out, either, even though some would turn their noses up at the suggestion.

What this really comes down to, is do you need a lightweight pump. Some guns are made to be shot a lot, and carried a little, others are made to be carried a lot and shot a little. In between there, falls the 50s vintage (I deliberately pick that era as the wood has more modern dimensions and is typically plainer, and sometimes lighter than 40s and earlier wood )Ithaca 37s with a plain barrel, that weigh in at 6 1/4-6 1/2 pounds, or a typical Remington model 17-you can get away with shooting them quite a bit, if you watch your loads, and you can carry them quite a bit as well.

Either you have mountains to climb when you are hunting, or, you don't. Most of us shoot better with a little more weight on the gun, but, I'm not too interested in a 7 1/2 lb 870 16 gauge, either. If I recall correctly, Mr. McIntosh made the case that most 28s should be no less than 6 lbs, and perhaps a bit more. Few of us (noted in various posts above) shoot sub 6 lb guns very well.

I'm a big fan of pumps, for a lot of reasons, and some of my best shooting has come out of that already mentioned King's Ferry 37 12 gauge with the 3" chamber, when it has the 30" barrel attached. This is a gun that is nearing 8lbs, and I simply HATE the fact that I shoot it so well. I believe I shot that Remington 17 just as well, 30 years ago, but, going from a size 28" waist to a 32" waist, getting bifocal glasses, watching and enjoying several generations of Setters come and go, and a few more aches and pains to deal with in the morning has, I suspect, corrupted that.

Youth is wasted on the young, is it not?

I suspect you will discover that if you put in the time required to practice with either of your pump guns, you will find both perform more than satisfactory for you. I would love to practice more, now, but, making a living keeps getting in the way of that. I do have at least one up-and-comer that I will make the time for, and he will start with a pump.

Good Luck.

Best,
Ted

Thanks Ted! That pretty-well sums it up. I have a brother, a brother-in-law, and a father-in-law that prefer to shoot pumps as well (big ole'12-bores!), but I prefer to have them ready and willing to go when the time comes to hunt. Thus my additional battery of guns. And...for almost no money, I can keep them ploding along with these much-lighter, sub-gauge guns. I love a good value and these little corn-shuckers have it in spades!

I have had plenty of shotguns, but now own only one Charles Daly Field bottom ejector. It's 12ga 3" pump 28" vent-rib barrel with choke tubes. With these specs at 6lb11 oz it is probably among the lightest pump guns made. The only non-steel parts are: Bradley bead, white spacers, walnut stock, plastic butt plate and magazine plug. I'm done with buying shotguns.

On my 1st trip to Argentina back in the 1980s, I brought my Ithaca 12ga model 37 for back-up to a 12ga Remington 11-87. The 11-87 gummed up from the first morning's shooting and I switched over to the Ithaca pump. I guess the recoil difference between the gas auto and the light pumpgun accentuated by the high volume shooting assured that I would dutifully clean my 11-87 every evening and also at lunch every day. That light pump like to have destroyed my shoulder...Geo

Although they do come in different configurations, a 12 gauge Ithaca 37 would likely not have been my pick for backup on a high volume shoot outside the country. I own the heaviest one I've ever seen, but, a work shift (8 hours) of shooting it in Argentina would likely still be problamatic, depending on loads, I suppose.

I would have probably taken a pair of 1187s, and cleaned one every other day.

Bet you didn't have to clean the Ithaca.

Best,
Ted

That's what I was thinking, I bet Geo was saying, it hurts but it just keeps shooting and shooting and working and working no matter what I do to this thing.

Where the heck is Walt at? I know he has a new 28 gauge, Model 37 . I only have second hand knowledge as my buddy owns one, completely decked out, and not only does he love it but everyone who uses it loves it.

My understanding is Walt had it (28ga 37) made with a stock profile similar to an early gun. I'm sure it's an extra expense but for me would make for a nicer looking a shooting gun.

The lightest of my pump fleet is a 1957 26" modified plain barrel 20 gauge M37 at 5 7/8 lbs. It is a fabulous dove and snipe gun. My 28 gauge M37 is 6 lbs. I've seen photos of Walt's gun and he had it done right. While mine is a fine gun, the factory wood comes with a recoil pad which is unnecessary on a 28 gauge. The lines of Walt's stock are superior to the new styled stock and his is without a pad by special order. I'd be surprised if there is a finer one in existence than Walt's.

Ithaca in Ohio does have a custom shop that you can have an earlier styled stock put on.

I learned that later, but probably wouldn't have spent the extra. It was steep enough with the upgraded factory wood. Gil

I have been away. I once owned a 20 gauge Ultralite with english stock and hard butt. It weighed about 4 3/4 pound. I fired 5 slugs sitting at a bench rest. No padding on my shirt. With tears in my eyes, I could shoot no more. Light weight guns are great to carry but are bummers to shoot. Of course when firing at game, recoil is not as noticeable.