doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Spanish side by side

Looking at maybe buying a 20 bore Spanish side by side. Would like at least 29" barrels. I am not looking at the high grades but leaning twoards a Garbi 100 or 101 or an Arrietta.
What say you? Any suggestions?
Would like to see some pictures if anybody has some.

Whats your price range?

Adam

if you wish to ever get your money back, don due hit!

IMHO, that may only hold true if you buy new--and then I can cite examples where they do hold their when-purchased-new value. Consider, for example, an AyA #2 that originally sold for about $4500 5 years ago is still bringing that amount for a high-conditioned used gun today. Having said this, generally speaking, I believe purchasing a high-conditioned used Spanish sidelock double by one of the known quality current builders is a pretty safe bet to hold their value.

I've got a lovely A Y A 20 and it's become my favourite. Nice and light, solid scaled down boxlock action with 27'' barrels. Admittedly, I got it at a good price, �200, about $300 I think. I would recommend a gun like this without hesitation, not sure if it'll last as long as my English guns but if looked after I honestly couldn't see why not. Don't think I'll be around long enough to find out though.

wild: not to be agumentative, but i must disagree. based upon about 30 years of buying and selling used sxs guns, here are some insights:

- the higher the price of a gun the longer it takes to sell it.

- unfortunately, spanish guns have a negative stigma. in the trade it is known as "the spanish curse".

so, used, high priced spanish guns have a long sales cycle. and, with rare exception, they do not hold their value. sadly, i do not recall a single instance where a used spanish made gun appreciated in value.

sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but, dems de facts...

"sadly, i do not recall a single instance where a used spanish made gun appreciated in value."

Oh, I don't know if that can be said across the board. I have several Spanish SXS, I could make money on but a good example. I bought a Ugartechea Model 30 STRAIGHT ENGLISH GRIP-EXTRACTORS-CHECKERED BUTT-CASE COLORED-NICE HAND CHECKERING-BLACKENED BARRELS-DOUBLE TRIGGERS. IMPRORTED BY PRECISION SPORTS, N.O.S./N.I.B. Purchased at a Florida pawn shop with all the papers for $300 in 2000. I have used it for years and taken care of it and get offers for it all the time for 2.5x that. ONE REASON IS, IT IS A SURE NUFF BIRD KILLER WITH 27 IN. BARRELS AND BORED IC/MOD.

ed- that may not be the case these days. Ten and twenty-year-old Arrizabalagas and AyAs are selling for more now than they cost (in dollars, not accounting for inflation). I have a number of Spanish mid-range SxSs that I can sell for more than I paid 8 or 10 years ago.

Besides, not everyone looks to recoup the purchase price of a toy that they used for years! If you look at what's happened to new prices of Spanish guns in the past few years you'll see what I mean.

Spanish guns got a bad rep 40 or 50 years ago when they made a lot of low-end guns to a price point. That's all in the past and, for example, the AyA #2 (a sidelock) is the best-selling SxS in the UK!

Point of order :-)

Any gun made to be sold is a �price point gun�. Price point is just that point at which offered compensation becomes sufficient that a seller is willing to transfer an item for the offered compensation. The AyA # 2 mentioned is a price point gun, and a relatively low price point gun at that.

All that said, Ed is partially correct. A gun purchased new, at full retail price, is unlikely to ever bring that original price at resale. The situation for used guns is less dire, and used guns can frequently be sold for more than the purchase price. That�s how Ed make money.

And with all of *that* said, I completely agree with Gnomon�s comment:



Shooters buy guns as tools, or recreational gear, and understand such things are depreciating assets. Resale value simply isn�t a concern.

Are not all guns made to be sold at a 'price point'? I think what we may be referring to is lower 'price point'.

Yep, you guys are right - LOW price point it is! I was probably less than clear when I just said: "...they made a lot of low-end guns to a price point." (bold added in quote)

But I still disagree - in terms of absolute dollars, better guns bought a few decades ago have appreciated.

Resale value, of course, was not part of Palunc's original post - it crept in.

There are a couple of Arrizabalaga 20 ga on the market right now - check out Orvis. These guns are orgiastic. I own a 20 ga AyA #2 that handles so well that it's a real joy to use. The AyA is not an expensive gun, either.

if one must buy spainish, then go for the higher end aya guns in small gauges. they seem to be worth the most and the fastest sellers of all of the spanish guns...but, there are many much better investment grade sxs to choose from. why not have the best of both worlds. a fine gun to use and enjoy and so long as you do not mess it up, it can be a good investment as well. the browning bss and now the various skb sxs's are cases in point.

In my experience Spanish guns made back in the 60's have the bad reputation and guns made in the 90's and 2000's have a very positive reputation. The 30 and 40 year old guns did come to this country with some bad firing pins, bad springs, etc., and those problems have been fixed and I think the AYA's, Garbi's, Arrieta's, and Grulla, all produce guns that are superior to any other guns in their price range as long as you stay with the current production guns made in the last 15 - 20 years. I've owned a bunch of them and I can honestly say I've never had problem one with any of them and they have always made me happy. That early reputation of a bad product is still out there with people that aren't really up on current guns, but most people that really like SXS guns today know a good gun when they see one. Again, this is just from my personal experience.

Shouldn't we say SOME Spanish guns made back in the 60s? The big 5 have nothing to hang their head about; Arrizabagala, Arrieta, AYA, Grula and Ugartechea as well as some smaller makers.

I agree 2holer. My Sarriugarte was made in 1969 and I can't fault the quality or workmanship of the thing. The internals are quality made and wood to metal fit is great. I know I would never sell it.

There are a couple of points on which I respectfully and cordially disagree.

Firstly the conditions under which improperly heat treated parts can make their way into the parts stream have not changed and aren�t likely to do so. None of the currently operating Spanish gun makers are immune to the problem. Those who doubt that may want to read this thread:

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=126&t=333860

This is not and never has been a major or wide spread problem. In short, while it does happen it doesn�t happen often.

Secondly I much prefer Spanish guns made in the 1950 � 1970 time frame to those made after DIARM. The earlier guns generally had more skilled hand labor put into them than is the case with corresponding gun made today. Indeed, the top price point guns of today are the upper middle price point guns of the 1950 � 1970 era. The top price point guns of that earlier time just aren�t made today; they would be so expensive that prospective buyers would just buy new Purdey or Holland & Holland shotguns.

If you can find a late model Garbi 100 with long barrels for less than $ 5000, buy it .
They are no longer made, supply is drying up fast and the quality cannot be duplicated at 2x the price.
Best regards,
JBP

Before spending $5000 USD on an entry level Garbi it might be wise to look at these two guns:

Mateo Mendicute, Purdey Grade, 1700 Euro (1948 gun):

http://armeriataradell.com/?wpsc-product=mateo-mendicute-grado-purdey-1270


Victor Sarasqueta, Hispania, Model 208, two barrel set, 3000 Euro (1974 gun):

http://armeriataradell.com/?wpsc-product=v-sarasqueta-mod-hispania-208-calibre-1270

Both guns have been restored by a master gun maker to like new. They are in a shop in Barcelona, so add about another $400 to the price of either gun for export, import, and shipping fees. At an exchange rate of 1.3 dollars to the Euro, total cost (USD) of the Mendicute would be around $2600. The Sarasqueta would total about $4300.

If a fellow wants to spend 5K USD on a Spanish shotgun there are a lot of attractive alternatives to a Garbi 100.

Here are my favorite models from each of the makers...

Ugartechea 1040... love the Woodward-style arcaded fences.





I love all of the models from Arrizabalaga. This one has Purdey-style scroll with oak leaves on the fences.



Arrieta 801 with Churchill scroll and a rounded body.




AYA #1 Deluxe







Grulla 216 RB



Grulla 209 with H&H stlye scroll (somewhat)




Arrieta 871 16ga 2-barrel set

Arrizabalaga with H&H style scroll






Arrieta 803

Adam, the Ugartechea is not a Mod 1040 but a Mod 1030 Kyrie can confirm that. The Mod 1040 have Purdey locks.
Marc.

absolutely beautiful guns. true works of art!

Once again some good info, but also some wrong info, from Ed. Anytime you buy a new gun and use it for a few years and turned it into a used gun, you will come out short. In time you will be made closer to being whole. Try buying a new Purdey for $100k and see what it bring on the used market. Many of you guys tickle me. You will buy a car, use it, and in 5 years you will lost half its value. 10 years and you have lost 90%. Yet you would think about that! Now Ed is wrong on the Spainish guns. For example. I started importing Arrieta is the early 90s. The 557 I was selling for $2500. Now the gun sells for $4995. Also when I first imported and sold the AYA #453, I sold it for $1695. New 2013 price is $3650. Try that with a car. I am not saying that you can not lose money on a gun, but time will make you closer to being whole. You will always have retained value which with many other items you will not..

I think I know a little about this business as I have been doing this on my own for 38 years, one of the old timers. Many of the guys here buy and sell a few guns a year and think they know the gun trade and the market

John Boyd
Quality Arms

That�s a good comment; I think the gun pictured probably is a Model 1030 rather than a 1040. Most folks are not aware that Spanish side locks may not have H&H locks, much less that Purdey locks were available.

This is another difference between Spanish guns made today and those made before roughly 1970. Back in the 1960�s, and earlier, many of the gun makers offered a choice in which kinds of locks they would use when making a gun. Purdey locks were more highly regarded than H&H locks, and many top price point guns were ordered with Purdey locks (which the Spanish refer to as Llaves de 4 Pilars).

Here are pictures one such gun, a Victor Sarasqueta �Hispania� Model 213:





Here is a picture of the lock, with the four pillars circled:



Here are the lockworks:

arrieta: I don't really understand your post. I do not get the car/gun comparison. most new cars depreciate in value, as do most new guns...and you indicate that the new retail price for two of the Spanish guns you have been importing since the early nineties have doubled in price. so have the prices of many other consumer products; cars being a good example.

what would be helpful, is for you to tell us the retail value of the two guns you mention, on todays used gun market. then we could make a fair comparison with the retail value of other new guns and their current value as used guns.

Good eye. You are correct. That was a typo on my part.

As for the Purdey/Beesley stlye action here are a few more from AYA...

AYA Senior Trio






A pair of AYA





And one more AYA...











And while we're discussing Purdey style actions.... Victor Sarasqueta offered an O/U inspired the by Woodward O/U which, of course, is now built by Purdey.





Adam

more absolutely gorgeous guns! who cares if they are good investments or not?

I have a Ugartechea 20 gauge 1030 and it is a wonderful gun. May sell it soon.Bobby

Couple of comments to add to Adams post;

The pair of guns with hand detachable locks are indeed 'Purdey style' locks, but not in a 'self opening' configuration (which the Senior is). I believe that AyA did some Model No 1's with the ''Purdey style locks but without the self opening in the early 1960s, but I'm open to being corrected on this! The 'normal' style cocking levers can be seen in Kyrie's final photograph towards the top of this page.

The Senior, whilst having Purdey style locks WITH the self opening (operated by the mainsprings being tensioned by the gun closure), omits the intercepting safety, opting for bolts on the sears instead.

None of the Spanish makes that used Purdey style locks are common, all having been made only in very small numbers. AyA built about 40 Seniors in total between approx 1980 (i.e. pre Diarm) through to about 1987 (approx the closure of Diarm).

Why can't you just buy a gun and enjoy it.
Why does it have to involve constant worry and calculation about resale value.

Unless it's bought truly for investment purposes and nothing else, we don't seem to apply the same rules to other recreational toys bought.
If we do, we rationalize any loss in value away with the gain in pleasure of enjoyment of use and ownership during the time we had them.
..Can't take a thing with you..

Some nice looking shotguns here.
There's true craftsmen and women all over the planet.
A fine quality firearm can be from anywhere,,just as well as one that isn't.
Judge them each on their own,,not necessarily on a name.
My .02

kutter: well said.

We need to distinguish between Purdey locks and Purdey self-opening actions.

The AyA Senior has both Purdey locks and a Purdey self-opening action. The AyA # 1 pair shown (and the VS in my post) have Purdey locks but not Purdey actions.

Purdey actions on Spanish guns are a rarity. Purdey locks on Spanish guns are uncommon, but not rare. Purdey locks was an option offered by Spanish gun makers for decades.

Buy a nice one second hand, lots of AYA No.1 s on the market for sensible money here in the UK and then no need to worry about losing money, regards, Mike

More information that may interest you on this subject at:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=479303&page=3