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#316593 - 03/07/13 05:22 PM William Moore london
Subgauge Offline
Sidelock
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Registered: 09/06/03
Posts: 257
Loc: Western Pennsylvania
Hi All
Looked at a gun in a friends house today it was as follows.
10 gauge
Under-lever
Looked to have twist barrels, but had
"William Moore London Laminated Steel" on the rib.
SN 153XX
Hammer gun
Double triggers

That is all I remember about it, any info would be welcome.
Thanks
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Mark

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#316608 - 03/07/13 06:15 PM Re: William Moore london [Re: Subgauge]
ed good Offline
Sidelock
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Registered: 01/25/02
Posts: 3414
Loc: nh
mark: to be a genuine william moore gun, it should have an address on the top rib as well as the makers name. if there is no address then it is most likely a birmingham or belgian knock off.

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#316628 - 03/07/13 08:24 PM Re: William Moore london [Re: Subgauge]
jeweler Offline
Sidelock

Registered: 08/19/06
Posts: 635
Loc: mississippi
I have a buddy that has one that has very nice dimensions
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monty

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#316651 - 03/08/13 03:27 AM Re: William Moore london [Re: Subgauge]
damascus Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 01/27/13
Posts: 270
Loc: Cheshire England
Hi Subgauge.
I have two addresses for William Moor.

1 1818 William Moor & Co. 43 Old Bond Street London
2 1838 William Moor 78 Edgware Road London

1844-53 William Moor & Grey Edgware Road London
_________________________
The only lessons in my life I truly did learn from where the ones I paid for!

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#316752 - 03/08/13 02:13 PM Re: William Moore london [Re: Subgauge]
lagopus Offline
Sidelock
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Registered: 06/22/08
Posts: 1726
Loc: Derbyshire, England
Be cautious as there was someone making guns using just the name William Moore London that were not the true William Moore of Moore and Grey fame who was a respected Gunmaker. The other William produced guns of inferior quality. Lagopus.....

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#316761 - 03/08/13 03:25 PM Re: William Moore london [Re: Subgauge]
Roy Hebbes Offline
Sidelock
****

Registered: 07/19/06
Posts: 1048
Loc: Canada
Subgage,
As stated by others we need photographs and details of the proof marks to Identify the Moore Gun or for that matter any gun.
The names; Wm,Moore & Co; W.Richards and J.Manton & Co; were Folsom house brand names, engraved or stamped on inferior quality Belgian hammerguns. The Wm;Moore hammer gun sold by Folsom was priced at $13.50 in 1884.A fraction of the cost of a London made gun of the era.
H&D Folsom Arms Company was located at 312-314 Broadway New York,and was active from 1859 to circa 1930.In later years they acquired the Cresent Fire Arms Company; a fire arms manufacturing company.This business was active till circa 1930.
For the record, Folsom used over 100 different brand names on guns that they offered for sale.


Edited by Roy Hebbes (03/08/13 03:26 PM)
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Roy Hebbes

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#316767 - 03/08/13 04:11 PM Re: William Moore london [Re: Subgauge]
Drew Hause Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 4959
Loc: AZ but dreaming of KS
c. 1890 Wm. Moore & Co. ad, likely imported by Folsom



More information here, with a few more than 100 tradenames Roy wink
https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1OxZo5Tkvx2G8eYf747QR9B5RJdN6Siu5JGIhfguSXXQ


Edited by Drew Hause (03/09/13 07:08 AM)
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#316847 - 03/09/13 05:30 AM Re: William Moore london [Re: Drew Hause]
Roy Hebbes Offline
Sidelock
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Registered: 07/19/06
Posts: 1048
Loc: Canada
Drew,
Thanks for posting the review of Folsom/Crescent business and trade/brand names.
Scarcely A gunshow takes place in Ontario,without some individual turning up with a spurious Manton or W.Richards,marketed by Folsoms thinking that they have aquired a treasure worth a small fortune!
_________________________
Roy Hebbes

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#316848 - 03/09/13 06:35 AM Re: William Moore london [Re: Subgauge]
lagopus Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 06/22/08
Posts: 1726
Loc: Derbyshire, England
Drew, that ilustration is not unlike a Wm. Moore gun that I had through my hands a few years ago with the crude side lever opening. The one I had did have Birmingham black powder proof marks. Maybe made in Birmingham or imported to this country where it would require proof. It was in a sorry state and of very poor quality and I de-activated it for someone in order that it could be used as a wallpiece.

Genuine William Moore guns are invariably of a high quality of craftsmanship. Here's hoping Subguage's is of good quality too. Photographs would assist greatly. Thanks. Lagopus.....

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#316954 - 03/10/13 05:09 AM Re: William Moore london [Re: Subgauge]
gunman Offline
Sidelock
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Registered: 05/11/10
Posts: 1013
Loc: England
Please do not dismiss out of hand a gun as a fake just because it dose not reach the "high standards" that you might expect .
Many gunmakers made/supplied guns to trading companies that were functional and robust for use in far off and wild places . They may have no resemblance to the stylish guns we know them to have made . I have seen guns by Wilkes that were as plain as any cheap gun turned out in Birmingham almost certainly made to be shipped out abroad . Webley made guns for the Forestry Commission, a government body set up after WW1 to oversee planting and production of timber in the UK ,these were plainly finished the most basic wood etc built to a contract price as were Webley revolvers in what was referred to as "War Finish" no external polishing apart from clothing off where necessary .
Yes there are fakes and high jacked names but nnot all are.

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#316972 - 03/10/13 10:25 AM Re: William Moore london [Re: Subgauge]
PeteM Offline
Sidelock
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Registered: 11/29/05
Posts: 4506
Loc: IL
William Moore was born in 1781. In 1808 he was recorded as being in business (description of business unknown) at 118 Whitechapel. He was also recorded as being a stocker for Joseph Manton, probably from 1809 to 1820. It is possible that he was related to Charles Moore of the firm of that name (and later Moore & Woodward).

From 1818 to 1853 William Moore lived at Colchester Road, Edgeware. In 1820 he established his own business at that address, but by 1828 his trade had increased to the point where he required larger premises so he opened a shop at 78 Edgeware Road.

In 1829 he opened a stock making business at Court, 4 Whittall Street, Birmingham. This may also have been a purchasing office and finishing workshop.

In 1835 a percussion lock developed by Moore was rejected by the Board of Ordnance.

In 1836 William Moore was appointed Gunmaker-in-Ordinary to King William IV, and in that year the name of the firm changed to William Moore & Co.

In 1837 or 1838 the firm were appointed gunmakers to Prince Albert.

Also in 1837 the business at Court, 4 Whittall Street moved to 35 Loveday Street, it was recorded up to 1845.

In 1838 William Moore and William Harris became partners in the firm of Moore & Harris, also at 35 Loveday Street, William Harris also traded from these premises in his own name (it is likely that William Harris was related to Alfred Harris who traded as a gun barrel maker in Birmingham - see Joseph Harris of Lionel Street).

In 1840 the partnership was recorded at 36 Loveday Street trading as gun and pistol makers; at least some of the guns sold were marked Moore & Harris, London, the partnership probably used William Moore's address. The firm appears to have supplied the trade as well as William Moore in London, some of the guns sold were marked "London" and were proved in London. The partnership also developed an export trade to the USA.

William Moore was recorded in the 1841 census livng at 78a Edgeware Road with his wife, Sarah (b.1806) and a servant. No other census entries have been found. The 1851 census records 78a Edgeware Road as being a milliner's shop.

From 1840 to 1845 William Moore also traded in his own name as a gunsmith from 35 Loveday Street. Harris ceased trading in his own name in 1845.

In 1847 William Moore and William Parker Grey, who had been clerk and then manager for Joseph Manton, went into partnership in London at 78 Edgeware Road, they operated as Wm Moore & Grey but Wm Moore also continued to trade as Wm Moore & Co, presumably in respect of specific aspects of his business.

In 1852 William Moore and William Harris patented a percussion revolver which was produced in limited quantities (patent No. 69).

In 1854 William Moore and William Grey started to trade as William Moore & Grey from 43 Old Bond Street, but William Grey and his son, F H Grey, also started to trade as William Grey & Son at 41 Old Bond Street. William Moore may also have traded from 43 Old Bond Street as William Moore & Co. Between 1854 and 1859 the firm of William Moore and William Grey, like William Moore & Co, were appointed gunmakers to Prince Albert.

By 1859 in Birmingham, Moore & Harris had expanded into barrel and lock making and in 1861 they moved to the Great Western Gun Works at 91 Constitution Hill.

In 1861 Frederick Beesley was apprenticed to William Grey at William Moore & Co at 43 Old Bond Street.

In 1862 the partnership of William Moore and William Harris exhibited military and sporting guns at the International Exhibition in London.

Between 1862 and 1865 the firm advertised the fact that guns not made by them were being engraved with the name Wm Moore & Co, London.

In 1864, perhaps because of temporary financial problems (American Civil War contracts ending?) or because William Moore died (no date is known), the business at the Great Western Gun Works at 91 Constitution Hill was sold at auction; the buyers were a partnership composed of "Moore and Harris" and a Mr Richards. The Moore could have been William Moore or his wife, or William Moore Jnr (?), Mr Richards was probably Westley Richards.

However, the new partnership closed within a year and the business was sold to W & C Scott & Son who valued the firm's USA export market. The firm of Moore & Harris, perhaps now owned by William Harris, probably moved to London, they were known to have been trading in 1867 from 2 Long Acre, London. When they ceased trading is not known, but it may have been prior to 1870 or even up to 1877.

In 1866 Henry Atkin moved from Purdey to work for the firm, he founded his own business in 1877.

In 1867 F H Grey, who by this time had probably taken over from his father, patented internal strikers on hammer guns (No. 2743).

In about 1873 the name of the Moore & Grey partnership may have temporarily changed to William Moore, Grey & Co. In 1878 the firm became a limited liability company, William Moore & Grey Ltd but in 1889 it reverted to unlimited liability.

In 1893, when the Inanimate Bird Shooting Association was formed, a "Mr Harris of Moore & Grey" attended. Apparently, he ran the Wealdstone Gun Club which was based at Harrow.

At some time prior to 1896 the firm registered a patent (No. 18582) for an automatic safety (rifle locks and triggers?).

In 1896 the firm moved to 165 Piccadilly and in 1902 to 8 Craven Street, Strand. In about 1897 they opened a branch at 11 The Arcade, Aldershot; Aldershot was and still is the "home" of the British army. It appears that, in common with other gunmakers at the time, the firm's sales did not warrant in-house gunmaking facilities, and that they were buying guns from Cogswell & Harrison.

In 1908 Cogswell & Harrison took over the firm, and Robert Grey joined them. This was probably when the Aldershot branch closed.

In 1917 Cogswell & Harrison moved the company to their own premises at 226 Strand and William Moore & Grey ceased to trade under their own name.

In 1928 Robert Grey died, also in that year Cogswell & Harrison left the Strand and operated only from 168 Piccadilly. They later included a "Moorgrey" model in their range of guns, this was a low priced model which was never very popular.

Some records of the company are held by Cogswell & Harrison.


Names used by the firm:
William Moore & Co; Moore & Harris; Wm Moore & Grey; Wm Moore Grey & Co; Wm Moore & Grey; William Moore & Grey (Ltd)

Addresses used
118 Whitechapel
Colchester Road, Edgeware
78 Edgeware Road (Colchester Road, Edgeware)
43 Old Bond Street
165 Piccadilly
8 Craven Street, Strand

(The IGDB is back grin)

Pete

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#317004 - 03/10/13 04:06 PM Re: William Moore london [Re: PeteM]
Stallones Offline
Sidelock
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Registered: 03/03/02
Posts: 1492
Loc: Republic of Texas
I have a nice William Moore & CO. 12ga , stamped London, fine twist. It has Birmingham proofs,serial # 50. It is definitely not a Belgium takeoff and has excellent workmanship and rebounding hammers. chokes are cyl/cyl and appears to me to be an 1870ish gun.After reading all of the above I am not sure about the period and any comments are welcome.
[img:left][/img]
[img:left][/img]
[img:left][/img]



Edited by Stallones (03/10/13 04:08 PM)

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#317019 - 03/10/13 06:45 PM Re: William Moore london [Re: PeteM]
Roy Hebbes Offline
Sidelock
****

Registered: 07/19/06
Posts: 1048
Loc: Canada
PeteM,
For many years I owned a fine percussion gun by Moore and Woodward.Records show that this business was at 64 St;James Street, London, 1850-1872.There appears to have been be a relationship between this maker and William Moore In that the the inside face of the locks of this gun were engraved ,"Wm,M&Co;"!
Woodward went on to found his own business which over time resulted in the development of his over and under gun.
What are your thoughts on this possible business relationship?
_________________________
Roy Hebbes

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#317020 - 03/10/13 06:57 PM Re: William Moore london [Re: Subgauge]
Daryl Hallquist Offline
Sidelock
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Registered: 12/31/01
Posts: 4408
Loc: Bozeman, Mt.
William Moore and Grey. Grey's patent with cocking levers that look like pinfire hammers, but the strikers and firing pins are inside the gun. Circa 1870



Edited by Daryl Hallquist (03/10/13 07:39 PM)
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#317026 - 03/10/13 07:53 PM Re: William Moore london [Re: Subgauge]
PeteM Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 11/29/05
Posts: 4506
Loc: IL
Roy,

Interesting. As I look deeper into the 19th century business dealings within the gun trade, I find many "relationships". They seemed to come and go. Some were formed around a specific contract. Some as a result of marriage. Some as a prelude to merger. Some to share resources. All sorts of reasons.

What is your take on the Moore - Woodward relationship?

Pete

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#317030 - 03/10/13 08:47 PM Re: William Moore london [Re: Subgauge]
ed good Offline
Sidelock
*

Registered: 01/25/02
Posts: 3414
Loc: nh
pete: great bio of william moore. thank you

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#317055 - 03/11/13 05:55 AM Re: William Moore london [Re: Subgauge]
lagopus Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 06/22/08
Posts: 1726
Loc: Derbyshire, England
Stallones, with the style of you gun I would think around 1868; give or take a year. Lagopus.....

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#350982 - 12/31/13 11:13 PM Re: William Moore london [Re: Subgauge]
zoom2x Offline
Boxlock

Registered: 12/28/13
Posts: 4
Loc: Johnson City, TN, USA
I, too, have a Moore & Harris. 2 barrels, triggers & hammers. "Moore & Harris. London." in vertical block letters and then "Laminated Steel" in slanted, slightly smaller block engraved letters on the sighting rib between the barrels. There is an engraved flying duck or goose or some kind of long-necked bird on the left side with "Moore & Harris" engraved in slanted block letters. On right there is an engraved walking pheasant and a repeat of "Moore & Harris" in engraved slanted block letters. There are engraved curlicues on the sides, on the hammers, on the inlaid metal piece where the barrels leave the stock and where the ramrod goes into the stock. The ramrod has a bronze knob that fits between and under the barrels and the knob must be pulled slightly from the barrels to clear the block below and between the barrels that holds the ramrod secure. The trigger guard has an engraved flying goose and curlicues. The guard curves around the triggers and is inlaid into the bottom of the stock and is engraved with the number "5381' with more curlicues. I inherited it from my father, who was active in Republican politics in the late 40s and early 50s, when he died in 1983. He received it as a gift from Democratic Senator Dennis Chavez of New Mexico, who was, I believe, a hunting buddy. Senator Chavez died in 1962. I do not intend to sell it but will add it to my collection to pass to my grandsons. Should I send it to someone to "clean and tune up" . I do not want to spend big bucks for a restoration. I saw some names of antique guns specialists somewhere on this site but not in this thread. I don't want to let someone mess it up. I suspect it has good value but not sure how much. It is not for sale. Any help would be appreciated. I took 15 photos but do not know how to get them on the site.
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#351005 - 01/01/14 07:41 AM Re: William Moore london [Re: Subgauge]
jeweler Offline
Sidelock

Registered: 08/19/06
Posts: 635
Loc: mississippi
I have a buddy that hunted with a 10 gauge William Moore of London gun last week.Thanks for the Bio I will forward.
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monty

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#352189 - 01/08/14 04:06 AM Re: William Moore london [Re: Subgauge]
zoom2x Offline
Boxlock

Registered: 12/28/13
Posts: 4
Loc: Johnson City, TN, USA
http://s944.photobucket.com/user/walterleedavisjr/library/

I think the above is a link to my photos of my Moore & Harris, as described in post #350982.

skeettx --- thanks for the pm info on how to get the pictures here.
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NRA Benefactor

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#352200 - 01/08/14 07:57 AM Re: William Moore london [Re: zoom2x]
HomelessjOe Offline
Sidelock
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Registered: 01/15/06
Posts: 8774
Loc: The Great State of Tennessee

Originally Posted By: zoom2x
Should I send it to someone to "clean and tune up" .


Nice gun...if you're not going to shoot it you should do nothing to the gun. Other than maybe some Renaissance Wax.

I'd put it's value anywhere between 9 and 18 hundred dollars depending on barrel wall thickness and bore condition.

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#352219 - 01/08/14 09:33 AM Re: William Moore london [Re: Subgauge]
skeettx Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 06/03/08
Posts: 2113
Loc: Amarillo, Texas
Lee, you are most welcome.
What a lovely firearm
Thanks for listing the pictures
Mike


Edited by skeettx (01/08/14 09:34 AM)
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#352225 - 01/08/14 10:07 AM Re: William Moore london [Re: Subgauge]
OH Osthaus Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 04/27/12
Posts: 235
Wm Moore & Grey from the Bond st address




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#353129 - 01/13/14 11:01 PM Re: William Moore london [Re: Subgauge]
zoom2x Offline
Boxlock

Registered: 12/28/13
Posts: 4
Loc: Johnson City, TN, USA
OH Osthaus

Your gun sure has a lot more curlicues than mine! Very pretty. Expensive work.

Others

A) what, if anything besides name and maybe the viscosity, is the difference between

1) http://www.midwayusa.com/product/857663/renaissance-wax-rust-preventative-and-gun-stock-polish-7-oz

2) http://www.midwayusa.com/product/419434/...tive-8-oz-paste and

3) http://www.midwayusa.com/product/132483/break-free-lubricant-and-preservative-gun-oil-16-oz-liquid

B) If I want to shoot my gun should I send it to some antique gun expert for a cleaning and tune-up or can a run of the mill gunsmith do it OK, assuming he meets at least minimum standards of competency?

C) If I should send it off, to whom? I am in "Upper East TN" but once it is packed and shipped the difference in cost for the gun going 100 miles or 1500 miles is probably not an issue.

Thanks

homelessjOe - Where in TN are you? I am in Johnson City but visit family in Memphis & Nashville from time to time. Thanks for the valuation. You are at your limit on Private Messages.


Edited by zoom2x (01/14/14 08:05 PM)
_________________________
Lee
NRA Benefactor

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#353843 - 01/18/14 09:32 PM Re: William Moore london [Re: Roy Hebbes]
Rocketman Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 5128
Originally Posted By: Roy Hebbes
PeteM,
For many years I owned a fine percussion gun by Moore and Woodward.Records show that this business was at 64 St;James Street, London, 1850-1872.There appears to have been be a relationship between this maker and William Moore In that the the inside face of the locks of this gun were engraved ,"Wm,M&Co;"!
Woodward went on to found his own business which over time resulted in the development of his over and under gun.
What are your thoughts on this possible business relationship?


As posted above, "By 1859 in Birmingham, Moore & Harris had expanded into barrel and lock making and in 1861 they moved to the Great Western Gun Works at 91 Constitution Hill."

Roy, see above for what I think is the connection. Information I have to date points to the break point between Moore & Woodward to James Woodward as being between percussion and break breech. I would expect M&H to have been quite competent at lock making and to have taken advantage of any opening to expand their business, family ties or no. Best gun parts were, like finished guns, simply a matter of someone willing to pay the price.

I would dearly love to have the serial, description and any photos of this gun.

DDA


Edited by Rocketman (01/18/14 09:35 PM)

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