doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Leopold Bernard Mystery 5 digits numbers

Hello All,
Buckstix and I might have bored the whole board to death with our Lefaucheux rifle adventures, but something is puzzling me.

When looking at my 1898 rifle, there is a 5 digit number on the bottom rib with a specific font. Often this is followed by a date.




I assumed until now that it was a Lefaucheux number, and then I realized that I had seen similar numbers before on other guns with Bernard barrels.
I have seen this on "no brand" guns, Guyot, Chapu, Lepage and Lefaucheux...

the dates are:

Devisme #3583 : 1843
No pic

Perrin #8184 : 1854
No Pic

Lepage-Moutier
#6084 : 1850



#17078: 18??



Lefaucheux described here

#19526 : 1866

#20938:1868



No name lever action
#23177 : 1870


Faure Lepage #24759:1873



Guyot #30685 : 1882



Roblin #33??? : A
The first A I know of. The number looks like 33169.

Guyot #357xx : ????



Pigeon #37xxx : post 1899



Gastine Rennette #38083: post 1899


So now the issue is that:
- The only obvious common element is the barrel maker (Bernard)
- A barrel maker is not usually providing the ribs, and even less assembled tubes

So either:
- Bernard was actually providing the assembled gun to all these guys
- somebody else was and from 1850 to 1900s! I sure don't know who that could be...

If you guys have Bernard barrels from any maker please look for this numbering and report, that would be fantastic!

Good hunt,

WC-

P.S> US Parkers don't seem to have this...

I found another one today:

Roblin 35237 : H pre 1899.

A this point I believe the following:

Bernard made barrel assemblies that he sold to gunmakers.
These sets included the tubes, lumps, probably the forend loop and for sure the bottom short rib.

It turns out that other barrel makers have been doing the same. For instance Heurtier was producing barrel sets which were silver soldered in their factory.

The barrel numbers are on the bottom short rib with a sequential number and a date separated by a dot.

The date was replaced by a letter at some point in the 1880s or 90s. This makes sense as the makers might not want a barrel date older than the gun manufacturing date.
I don't have example of all the letters, so I don't know if they were all used.
I suspect that H might be 1896 or 1897.
If a straight alphabetic order was used, it would have started in 1888 or so.
If you have Leopold Bernard barrel tube sets, please look and report.

All the best!
WC-

I have nothing substantial to add to the discussion, but in a way of encouragement, what you're doing is very interesting. Keep it up!

Just curious here- what are the scratched marks on the right tube flat on the Gaston Renette set of barrels?

Another theory: Perhaps Bernard, in order to protect his copyright, cartouche and reputation, wouldn't allow the gunmakers to stamp "Bernard" on the barrels unless they stamped a unique serial number on the rib. This serial number would be furnished by Bernard along with his tubes. If a gunmaker started stamping "Bernard" on barrels that weren't made with his tubes they wouldn't have the serial number furnished by Bernard and thus could be held accountable.

Think fake Gucci purses, Rolex watches, etc...



Best,


Mike

The scratch marks are a full set of reinforced Paris proof circa 1900+.
provisional (EP), PT 70mm, and finals proof (the ships).
The ships are the banner of Paris which motto is "fluctuat nec mergitur" "it floats but does not sink", which refers ro the origin of Paris on an island on the Seine river.
Best regards,
WC-

Well I get that, but the stamps fonts are identical all the way from the 1850s to 1900, and the numbers are sequential, which would pretty much rule this out.
It is true that Bernard stamps were imitated by a host of others.
His "brand" was very valuable, and therefore imitated. I also have to believe that the "E. Bernard" maker from Liege was benefiting from the name similarity. I have yet to see an L. Bernard gun. I have only seen barrels.
One also can see that his original stamps were just (LB) and Leopold Bernard. Down the road, the legion of honor stamp showed up (he probably got it) and the "Canonnier a Paris" as well.
Best regards,
WC-

WildCattle, if you wish, I can send some Bernard information I have collected over the years. Knowing that there are several Bernards in the French/Belgian history, some may not interest you. Me email is in my profile if you want some misc. Bernard pictures.

Meanwhile, here's a Bernard, I think from Liege.

i have a belgium sxs sidelocked 16 guage nicely engr. shotgun.
it is belgium proofed but the barrels are marked w. hamacher dusseldorf. the bottom rib is stamped 09700 in front of the forend latch and the serial num. of the gun 6 in. in front of that. any help?

29601.1881

They seem linear with the above then and you give Guyot #30685 : 1882


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse