doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Special run of BSS's?

If someone got Browning to do a run of BSS's as a Sporting Clays/waterfowl/dove special, 12 or 20 ga., with 31" Barrels, light mod./mod., long, slim semi-beavertail, trim pistol grip, upgrade wood, sst, nice pad, 14 1/2" x 1 1/2" x 2 1/4", no options, @ $3999, who all here would put down a $1000 deposit with Browning for one.

Those wanting an English-stocked, splinter forend, double trigger game gun need not answer.

Thanks
JR

John, isn't that what the Turks are building right now, but at a fraction of the price?

Huh?
JR

OK, sorry to steal your thread, I'll go away.

Not judging, just asking, Treblig. To my knowledge, no Turkish maker is offering any such gun. Your reply was not what I asked for.
JR

While that would be a heck of a nice gun for many of us, John, I doubt I would be in at that price. I understand that it would most likely take that to produce it and come out ahead, but I think some of the people who who would be in the market for that would think, "Hmmm, I can buy a nice BSS on the market for $1400-$1600 now, and is it worth the difference to me to have one inch longer barrels and upgraded wood?" I know you specified a couple other features as well, but I am just too myopic, I guess.

You know me, and functionality is no. 1 for me. Looks come second. I'm first and foremost a shooter/hunter. The longer barrels are the most attractive feature for me, which is the reason I am sniffing the ground hard trying to flush a set of damaged BSS barrels to have sleeved to 32". The upgraded wood would have little to no meaning to me on a BSS. A vintage Fox or L.C Smith is another matter. I guess I just look at the BSS as more of a tool than an object of admiration.

Interesting idea, and fun to consider, and it wouldn't surprise me one bit if I'm the only one that feels this way!

SRH

Oh I think you are in the majority, Stan. I just thought it would be revealing to a few here who wonder why Browning hasn't brought back the BSS in some form or another. Maybe they could do it for $3500 or so (I doubt it), but would that even make a difference?

I think many of us do not realize just how small the sxs market is. The gun I mention would fill a niche that probably has more interest than any other, thus the configuration I presented.

Just having fun. Let me know when you find that thirty inch gun we've talked about.
JR

The trouble with well made guns is that with proper care, they very rarely if ever wear out...

If Wonko would separately post his question, we might learn something.

Jay

The replies to my question were about what I expected. Thanks guys.
JR

Mark, what does this have to do with my topic/question, or were you just being obtuse?
JR

Interesting.....but for that price I would get an RBL even though BSS's are built like a Sherman tank.

If it had choke tubes and an adjustable comb , I would be all over it.

John,

There is but a very small market for a new $4000 BSS because there are so many good SxS's on the used market at or below that price.

Mark

John
My recollection was my new BSS cost was a little more than a citori in 1984. So your prospective $3500 is probably right on or maybe a tad low.

Back to your question. .. given the current quality of the citori guns compared to citoris of the 80s, I'd probably pass on a new BSS.

A few years ago I purchased a new RBL-12 with 32" barrels. The base price was about $3000. The base RBL was on par or maybe a little nicer than was a BSS. CSMC was unable to sell many RBL-12's and I think that a new production BSS would suffer the same.

Today I would spend my $3000 to $4000 on a 32" Parker, AH Fox, or LC Smith.

CSMC figured out the SxS market. There are plenty of good SxS's on the used,secondary market between $1500 and $5000. Their $15000+ AH Fox and M-21's do have a following, albeit small. They are like Chevy Corvettes. In our youth we dream of owning one and finally do when we have grey hair. Along the way we may buy a Chevy car or truck because we go to the showroom to see the new Corvette. My friends in their marketing department call it their "Flagship" model.

If the Turkish manufactures would figure out a good and reliable trigger and offer special order configurations such as long barreled small bores for a premium price (maybe $2000 to $3000), I think those would sell.

Just my opinion,
Mark

sadly, the sxs market is shrinking. those of us who appreciate such things are becoming less and less...as we all eventually end this earthy ride...

take a young man shooting. let him use your side by side. then get him his own. that is the best hope for the future of these fine guns...

and we really dont need any more over priced new guns. plenty of old classics around to satisfy demand.

90 days away from a DeHaan.
.410 with 30" barrels, killer wood and "Double Triggers".
Half the cost of a Model 23 and a third of the cost of a RBL.

I think the Turks are firmly entrenched in that market and maybe why the RBL is suffering in sales. Possibly why Ruger left and the Spanish also?
Browning's new BSS would take an unnecessary beating.

Maybe Browning should have the Turks build a BSS with Browning oversight and ISO quality standards?

All good points, gentlemen. I think Browning has made the right decision to stay out of this market. My point has been proven.
JR

I agree Mark, and I tend to put my money where my mouth is. I recently got a Fox BE with #2 32" barrels, and Briley S1 tubes, that had been re-stocked with beautiful walnut for far, far below $3500. It remains to be seen if I will ever shoot it as well as I do the 30" BSS, tho'. I'm hopeful, as the first round out with it on the 5-stand went 22. But, that's a long way from being there. I'm gonna give it a fair try, and plan to have it at the Southern in April to wring it out.

I have never found a vintage double that is as competition friendly as a BSS, tho' I've never used a 21. It may well be, but look at the difference in cost.

SRH

Hi Stan,

That AH Fox BE 32" sounds like a dream!

At Hausmann's Hidden Hollow I shot my light 32" Super Fox (8.25 lbs) on the small bore course with my Parker brothers shooting their 16 gauges. I seem to make them nervous shooting tight targets as well as they do with their 6 lb grouse guns!

Mark

Good shooting, Mark. That is one light HE Fox. Mine goes 9# 9 oz.

My BSS is much lighter, and 2" shorter in the tubes, but the ducks don't know it!

SRH

I don't think a target gun built on the BSS platform would be the right way to go. Not that many sxs target guns. Remember what Parker Repro did, and what Galazan also did: In both cases, started with smallbore field guns. True, the numbers aren't great . . . but anyone care to wager whether Galazan has sold more 20's or 12's? Might very well have sold more 28's than 12's.

What we're forgetting here, I think, is the reputation of Japanese sxs in this country. Some people aren't overly fond of Spanish, or else are interested in the higher dollar sidelock market. Where's the competition for BSS in the $3K range? Ugartechea just a little lower; the BSS might come in a bit higher than that, where the 4/53 now is, or soon will be. Browning could tube the guns, which they never did with the originals, and which hasn't hurt Galazan's 20ga RBL sales, it would seem. Nicer wood than the old ones, option of splinter vs BT forend. I think it could be done, factoring in the European as well as American market--and Miroku does pretty well in Europe.

But a sxs 12ga target gun is the wrong place to jump in. Insufficient interest. That's a niche within a niche.

Not a "target" gun, Larry, but, as I stated, a Sporting Clays/waterfowl/dove Special. Very similar to most Win. 21's, which have a pretty decent following.

Also, please note that I wasn't suggesting Browning "jump in" to the sxs market, only asking if they would be interested in doing a run of a "niche" gun and who might be interested in one.
JR

John, you're suggesting they'd tool up to produce sxs, which they haven't done for about 25 years, just to make a run of "niche" guns? Wouldn't seem to make much sense to me. If you're going to go to the trouble of getting back into the sxs business, you'd either have to shoot for more volume than that, or else charge an exorbitant price if you're only doing a small run.

Although I think they could make a go of it with a Miroku-made game gun, probably small bore, what Browning did when they originally came out with the BSS made a good bit more sense. Miroku was already making sxs, so it was simply a case of tweaking a gun they were already producing and putting the Browning name on it. Same story with the Citoris. Miroku was already making OU's, which again made things a lot easier. Not to mention cheaper.

What you are missing here, Larry, is that I was looking for replies to a specific proposal, nothing more. A gun similar to a Win. 21 in configuration, style, and purpose (please note I included 20 ga. as well as 12).

Maybe Browning couldn't do it for the price I mentioned, but maybe they could. More likely is they wouldn't. Nobody seemed interested, so I got what I was looking for. All the rest of the scenario you present changes nothing. But thanks anyway.
JR

If my BSS's were similar to Win 21's, I'd probably have to sell them.

As much as like the BSS, I think the RBL is better suited to today's market. The RBL is not perfect, but I like the flexibility and range of choices that CSMC provided.

John, you're addressing a fairly small audience here, although certainly one that's interested in side by sides. Might be interesting to see the reaction to your proposal--or, for that matter, my suggestion of a BSS small bore game gun--from, say, a majority of the readers of Double Gun Journal. But frankly, I would've been surprised if your specific proposal would have generated a lot of interest, given the relatively lukewarm reception to 12ga RBL's tricked out as long barreled target/waterfowl/etc guns. Both Galazan and Reagent Chemical, when they decided to produce the Parker Reproduction, started with smaller bore guns to "test the waters" before they came out with any 12's. I'm thinking one reason the market for long-barreled 12's isn't that great is that there are plenty of them out there in the form of vintage American doubles--far more of those than smallbores--and they're excellent starting points for custom conversions to side by side sporting clays etc guns. I owned one of those, fairly briefly: 30" Parker V grade on a #2 frame, restocked to modern dimensions, choke tubes, etc. Eventually decided I didn't really want what for me was basically a dedicated 12ga target gun. But I also think it was a successful project, for someone looking for something like that.