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What would you call this gun?

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"Colonial grade" is usually associated with the bottom end of original quality grade for Brit guns. SLNE? Ok. But self opening???

DDA

Your link doesn't work for me, Don.

SRH

Can I have two? Even per 300 quid? Even though the description says BLNE and so does the pic?

i wonder if this one works

Was there anything to prevent someone from ordering a self-opener in a colonial quality? I could think of some Wooster on a shooting trip to the colonies, wanting Jeeves to have a shotgun too, with Jeeves objecting to be given a 'gentleman's gun'. Or something, you know. In my (probably incorrect) understanding the time period was a "no rules" in gun ordering. One just came into a gunshop, articulated what one wanted, and was supplied with the weapon described and a bill.

Or can it be a mistake in description? There's nothing on the pics to suggest if it is a self-opener or a regular A&D.

I'll have a look at this gun when I go to the viewing. Suspect it is based on the 'Wristbreaker' action, which was originally patented for an A&D action.
Tim

Not all "Wristbreakers" with scant engraving were made for Jeeves. A shooting buddy has a cased matched pair of plain finish Wristbreakers in 16 gauge, a delightful pair of guns. I doubt that the original buyer thought he was buying a cheap gun.

I recall being told that the Colonial grade was intended for general export . There were guns marked as the Colindian and the Coladian for the Indian and Canadian markets . I dont think there was Colyanky .As to the non ejector ,if its old enough it may have been made before ejectors became standard and was one less thing to go wrong in a far off land ,Add to this the simple fact that cartridges would have been reloaded in brass cases there was no need to have ejectors and risk losing the cases.

This type of plain action devoid of vast amounts of engraving I am given to understand where very popular for sending to Africa and some other far flung Brit colony, because they where not eye catching to the local people who where extremely prone to borrowing a beautiful well engraved shiny gun with no intention of returning it to its owner.

Looks like a Charles Lancaster Body Action that I had once... it too was a self-opener.

It is a Beesley patent - mainspring acts to open the gun. Not overly complicated.

OK, you guys on the east bank (of the Alantic), do you all think this gun is a likely suspect to have been sent out to the colonies?

Dig, do you think this action can be made at the price point reasonable for the definition of "colonial grade" we seem to understand here in USA (the west bank).

Gunman, I understand the ejector "issue" much better than the self-opener "issue." I have thought of self-openers as a few notches up the food chain from colonial grade. Or, is this really the bottom of the SLNE barrel?

That gun wouldve cost just a little bit more than a standard colonial grade from another maker. I would think of the Lancaster colonial grade in the same way you would a WR "gold name ". Very high quality gun, without a couple of expensive features such as ejectors and engraving. If you notice that the Lancaster has a patent block safety, which is a type of intercepting sear, definitely a feature found on higher quality English guns. Not many colonial grade Brit guns were built with that feature. For reference, these body action Lancasters were built on Beeselys patent #425 of 1884, the safety is covered by patent # 14,488 also of 1884. Both types of guns, body action and SLE are covered under the same patent. Another patent, #7242 of 1894 was an improvement on the action by changing the design of the cocking dogs, etc. Also, the "body action" Lancaster is not a A&D box lock. Completely different animal.
The cost of the gun? Prices on the body action started at �35 and went up from there, the SLE started at around �50.

Rocketman . I would guess it was the current model and just becuase people lived out in the wilds did not mean that they did not want the "most up to date" designs . Please do not forget that many of these guns would have been bought in London by Army Officers as well as people traveling to the Colonies to settle ,work , vist or explore/hunt . They were not just guns that were exported for sale in those countries.

Thanks, all.

gunman, can you offer up a better name than "colonial/farmer grade" to designate the bottom end of Brit gun production (BLNE with plain wood, minimal engraving, no "bells and whistles," minimum hours on finish and checkering)?

DDA

Wasn't it what was known as "keeper's gun"?


Sort of an OT, but

I guess, if Jeeves had his way (and he would), his gun would have very modest finish, but in all shooting essentials (weight, balance, design, fit) it would be a 'best' and not cheap at all

I have been under the impression that a "keeper's gun" would vary with the wealth, generosity, and need to show such at the time the gun was ordered. Also, I was under the impression that the keeper's gun was usually/often ordered from "me Lord's" usual maker. I suppose it did/could have happened any way you care to imagine it happening. Maybe I should just go ahead and call it "Bottom 'o the heap" = OQ9. Or, does "Colonial/farmer grade" = OQ9 hit the mark in a high enough percentage of the time that we can overlook the times it doesn't??

DDA

Don, I think a "keeper's gun" might have been ordered FROM the estate owner's usual maker, but not likely BY that maker, if it was someone like Purdey or Boss. But I expect they certainly could have ordered in a basic boxlock made "in the trade" for a good customer--on which they would not have put their name. Then again, maybe it didn't work that way and the noble had to go elsewhere to find a keeper's gun.

I've seen quite a few Colonial grade Lancasters and all were of the self opening type. Quite undervalued across here. Hard to close though as the spring is quite strong.

Certainly Thomas Bland sold a 'Keeper's' gun as did Midland Gun. Plain they were but poorly constructed they certainly were not. Good sound and honest but without frills. Lagopus.....

So, Lagopus, is a "keeper's gun" as I described above? Or, is it something else and there is a lower grade. Remember, we are speaking of guns of Brit make. I know there are plenty of non-Brit made guns of truly inferior quality.

DDA

The thing is, I feel, that the designations of lower-end Brit guns doesn't always reflect the people who actually bought these guns. As is the common knowledge, ever since George III (?), only the well-to-do could hunt legally. And if one could afford paying 4 pounds a year for a shooting license, one could also afford a pretty decent gun, at about at least 20 to 40 pound range (allowing 4 pounds over 5 or 10 years). However, reading any period book on shooting gives you the feeling that poaching was widespread and almost anyone in Brit countryside had a gun, and of course these weren't the 'best' type or even close. It would be embarrassing for the trade to admit they were supplying poachers, so they probably had to make believe the low-end guns were for the keepers, or for the colonies, or for export in general (Greener calls these 'export grade' guns, if I'm not mistaken).

Another thing is that apparently, any traveler before WW1 had to pay full custom duties on guns he had on him. Temporary import permits were not yet invented. The duties were very high, often 50% of the cost of guns (from Modern Sporting Gunnery, by Henry Sharp, 1906), and a fellow visiting numerous counties could save quite a few pennies by making his guns look cheap and claiming less value.

From an 1892 London makers catalogue:

�My semi-hammerless double grip action �special� gun. This is an excellent gun for keepers and emigrants, its quality, style and performance is far in advance of any other gun of its class.�

This gun (the line drawing shows it with rebounding hammers and a Jones under-lever) was for sale at �7 guineas. There is the Emigrants Outfit which includes:

�The above gun, fitted with waterproof case - �1. Complete set of strong fittings for loading, recapping, reloading cartridges and cleaning - �1/7/0. 200 best cartridge cases, 2 lbs felt wads, 1000 card ditto and 500 caps to recap - �0/10/0. The lot complete - �10!�

This gun was his cheapest own name offering.

Next up was this:

�My new model top lever semi-hammerless �special� gun.� Available for �10 guineas, there is no suggestion for whom the gun might be suitable! (The line drawing shows a hammer gun)

Then moving up again was this:

�Body patent special hammerless gun� Available at �13/10/0 for the plain version or up to �35 with very best Damascus barrels, ejectors �5 extra. (The line drawing shows an A&D action)

The best quality top lever, bar action guns with Whitworth steel barrels were available at �45 with �5 extra for ejectors.

On a separate page listing all guns that can be supplied, the lowest price is for a 12 bore �suitable for use at sea, or rough work� at �5.

Tim

Hi All
I just thought this may be of interest to you, in the picture is a true country poacher�s gun it belonged to a very good friend of mine who is now poaching in that large estate in the sky it belonged to his grandfather who was a Shropshire poacher come game keeper in the 1800s. It was also used by his farther who was also a game keeper come poacher in Cheshire. The gun is near to top quality its action and locks where made by �Joseph Brazier� who was at the time one of the many gun component suppliers whose locks can be found on some of London�s Victorian first line makers. This gun has a Manchester gun makers name on the lock plates. The violin case is a rather cheap Victorian wood offering in which the gun has lived in for over a century, though it has been refurbished inside and new handle and catches fitted. I am sure that if a poacher is going to risk the noise of a gun while plying his trade he would want reliability above all, for if he was caught the penalties here in Britland where draconian.

Interesting violin "What I was doing in the wood and what is that? I'm a-going for the country dance next village an' that's my fiddle I will be playing at the dance. Play for you? No way, I won't even take it outa case, too damp in here!" Thanks for sharing

Looks like the Brits came up with the violin case idea before Capone and the other American gangsters of the 20's for their Thompsons.