doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Lefaucheux Double in 8mm lebel - Leopold Bernard

Hello WildCattle,

Would it be possible for you to post a couple of pictures of your front and rear sights? My reason for wanting to see them will be clear shortly.

Here are pictures of the sights on my rifle. Brass front bead, and opposing folding leaf rear.










The reason I ask to see your sight configuration is..... I got a hold of some generic Lebel ammo that was loaded commercially using Graf brass, "8mm Lebel - Graf" headstamp, and 185g sp .323 dia bullets.

Well, I went to the range for a look-see because its been 4 days since I've owned this and I couldn't wait any longer to shoot it.

I should have waited. At 50 yards using the lower of the 2 rear sights, the rifle shot high. When I folded down both rear leaves, and sighted down the rib like a shotgun, the rifle still shot high.

And, ... right barrel shot "left" of center, and left barrel shot "right" of center, with all shots being on the same horizontal plain. According to this result, the front site should be higher if I aim down the rib, and higher still if I use the lower rear leaf.

Loads were reasonable with primers showing acceptable pressure levels. I didn't take the extra time to set up the chronograph since I didn't expect to be using 185g bullets in the future and was just making the brass empty for reloading.

But, I'll set up the chrono next time.

Got any words of wisdom?

I'll get some pictures later. My sights are different, but not very different. I only have one leaf, and just like yours, there is no standing back sight. It's almost like Rieger was confused if he was making a shotgun or a rifle.
Your rifle is crossing, that means too high velocity and more than likely too light of a bullet. So at least, it goes in the expected direction.
Are L&R at least on the same plane (unlike the Fraser)?
Best regards,
WC-

Hi Buckstix,
Here are the pictures.

Back sight:


Front sight:


Frankly, neither of them look original. The front sight is quite tall...At least 5 or 6 mm.

The center to center distance is ~22mm at the breech and ~18mm at the muzzle. Barrel length is 71cm, i.e 28".

Hope this helps.

BTW, As soon as I saw the pictures of your gun on George's site, I called about it. However, I was not sure that I needed two of them!

Best regards,
WC-

Hello WildCattle,


My front sight is only 2mm tall. If I do the math, increasing its height by 4mm would bring my rear sighting requirements "above" the rib surface by about 1mm.



Yes, those were my thoughts exactly. Several people seeing my rifle for the first time, with the rear sight folded down, thought it was a 410 shotgun.


In some ways this is funny; a Fraser that I can't get to cross, and a Lefaucheux that crosses.

Yes, both barrels appear to shoot on the same plane, although it was hard to see any close groupings from the individual barrels when your shooting high and only have 20 cartridges of unknown velocity with bullets that are 50g too light.


My barrels have the exact same center-to-center distance on both ends. My barrel length is only 60cm, i.e. 23-5/8", which means my front sight needs to be a bit higher than yours. Distance between front & rear sights is about 50.2cm. Since your rear sight is significantly "lower" than mine, you are likely going to see far better results in elevation.



I found this reference from Didier Mottay, a Guns and Shooting Online reader, of the first original "M" load for the 232 grain flat nose bullet: (converted from mps)
200m = 1598 fps
400m = 1300 fps
600m = 1097 fps
800m = 950 fps

By back calculating the ballistics I get:
muzz = 1955 fps
100m = 1770 fps

I have discovered only two references that give an exact muzzle velocity of an original 232g loading. One for some Knyoch ammo.

" .... Somebody shot off 7 rounds of the Kynoch ammo. 232 grain nickle bullet; 39.1 grains of flake powder; 2008 fps .... "

And this one from a link, which gives a very interesting history of the Lebel rifle.

" .... The new rifle fired a new cartridge, known as the Balle M. The Balle M, or 8x50mmR Lebel was basically a shortened and necked down 11x59mmR Gras case. The Balle M fired a 232 grain jacketed flat nosed bullet at a muzzle velocity of 2,050 feet per second...."

http://www.cruffler.com/Features/NOV-01/historic-november01.html

I suspect that our rifles would have been regulated to uses these original 232g loadings in the velocity ranges indicated.

In cross referencing several sources of vintage loading, your suggested load of 40g IMR4895 should be spot-on for the 232g jacketed bullets. I will "up" that a tad (+2.0g) for lead bullets and will be trying some lead bullet loads, perhaps later today.


I'm glad you don't have two of them, I think this is going to be a fun little gun once I get all the bugs worked out. I'm already anticipating some sight changes.

Hi Buckstix,
here is a picture from the 1910 Manufrance catalog, showing a sporterized Lebel rifle for "African" usage.
The legend says
" Special Model for hunting elephants, predators and long distance hunting"
Oh boy!



Anyways, the "normal issue ammunition" is 15 gram (232 grains) projectile with a muzzle energy of 630 m/s (2100 fps).
Propellants are 2.75 grams of either "J" powder or "BN3F".

Manufrance showed the same load all the way to my 1939 catalog.

I found the same velocity number earlier in a bunch of French references looking for "8mm Lebel balle M".
Now, not *all* the catalogs are correct...

As for your sights, it sure seems that something is off, but can be fixed.

I am having some questions about who was manufacturing these weapons, due to the 5 digit number on the bottom rib.

More to come.

WC-

Hello WildCattle,

I've loaded some 225g .323 dia bullets with 40g IMR 4895 and I'm off to the range to try them. If given enough time, I might set-up the chronograph to check velocities.

In researching the manufacture of these weapons, I still have a question about the serial number. I know that you said the 1897 number on my water table is the date and not the serial number, but I'm not yet entirely convinced this is so. Of all the antique weapons in my collection, only "one" is dated, and not in that location. All those with any numbers in that location on the water table, and especially those when the number is repeated "twice", have the serial number located there.

I know you mentioned another similar weapon with a similar frame with a 1901 number, but is it possible these 3 known frames were all made in a "batch" and the serial number were in fact 1897, 1898, and 1901?

Just thinking in print.

Hello wildCattle




Well, Compared to yesterday, I had the following results. I only fired 8 shots.

The right barrel still shot "left" of center but not as much left, and left barrel still shot "right" of center, but not as much right. And all the shots were on the same horizontal plain ..... I sighted down the rib like a shotgun, and the rifle still shot high, but not as much high.

I set up the chronograph and the average velocity was 2028 fps. My feeling is that this load of 40g IMR 4895 was just a tad too hot. The cases were a bit sticky upon ejection. I'm going to pull the bullets and try next time with only 35g of powder.

At least we made some progress.

So it crosses a lot less, but still quite a bit.
Reducing velocity should help with this.
However, we are still a ways off...

WC-

One more suggestion,
Double rifles are meant to be shot standing up.

Are you doing your shooting off sandbags and sitting?

Just for grins and if your range allows, try shooting
the gun while standing, either a tall bench, crossed sticks,
single shooting stick, etc, you get the picture.

I do believe your elevation concern will come better in focus.

Perhaps, possibly, maybe, we shall see

Mike

Hello skeettx,

Yep, been there, done that, know what to do.

(my other link)

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=220829&an=0&page=0#Post220829