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Apr 29th, 2024
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 62
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 62 |
Just picked up the Birmingham side lock pictured below and am confused by the markings. Looks to me like it was proofed first in London with 2 1/2 inch chambers and later in Birmingham at 2 3/4 inches- is that correct? Any way of dating the manufacture of this gun or the date of proof? Was Rowland Watson the maker or the retailer who sold the gun? What is known about the Boulder, Colorado company- was that the importer? Anything you can tell me about this shotgun will be appreciated and I am looking forward to learning about these beautiful guns. Thanks, Jim [img][IMG] http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu315/corkdecoy/English%20Shotgun/table_zps7e1eedb1.jpg[/img][/img]   
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Joined: Oct 2006
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,271 Likes: 521 |
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,218 Likes: 121
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,218 Likes: 121 |
Hi CD, welcome to the slippery slope of Brit guns! This won't be your last! Once you get one, you'll have to get more. First off, the importer is our own Steve Bertram who is a member of this board BTW. His handle is SKB. You can PM him for more info on your gun. Your gun can be dated several ways, by SN, the proof marks (this is a general guide and not a specific year) and also by a series of letters between crossed "swords". Your gun has been reproofed to 2 3/4", but don't shoot modern American high pressure loads in your gun....not a good thing!!! The maker Watson, did make and retail his guns (the action is I believe made by W&S). You can google Watson for more info. There are several good books that will help you understand Brit guns in simple lay terms: http://www.amazon.com/Vintage-Guns-Modern-Diggory-Hadoke/dp/160239198Xhttp://www.amazon.com/Vintage-British-Shotguns-Shooting-Sportsman/dp/0892727748/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_zhttp://www.safaripress.com/The-British-Boxlock-Gun-Rifle/productinfo/HADOKE98Z/The above books are excellent!! Again, congrats on your first Brit Gun, you won't regret it!! Best! Greg
Gregory J. Westberg
MSG, USA
Ret
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,218 Likes: 121
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,218 Likes: 121 |
Gregory J. Westberg
MSG, USA
Ret
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,529 Likes: 80
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,529 Likes: 80 |
Boothroyd give a good potted history of Rowland Watson and the later amalgamated company of Thomas Wild . IT was said that there had always been a Watson in the Birminham gun trade since first established in buisness in 1723 . The last MR Watson died in 1988. I had the peasure of breifly knowing him in the late 70s . They were at the 17 Whittall St adress 1900/1930 .
I would suspect the gun was at the earlier end of that time give the original black powder proof . gjw belives the action was but W & S but I see no evidence of that. It looks to be a fairly standard trade style action from the photo . Wild/Watson did use some Belgian actions prior to WW1 quite nicely finish in Birmingham but had brazed ribs . I once owned one .
Last edited by gunman; 01/13/13 07:34 AM.
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 6,993 Likes: 402
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 6,993 Likes: 402 |
That is a gun I brought in for a client. It handles extremely well and has nice dimensions. It should make a fun shooter, Enjoy!
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,378 Likes: 105
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,378 Likes: 105 |
Proofmarks on this gun are interesting. The original ones are London and look to be from 1887-1904. (After 1904, the shot charge would have been marked.) It then looks as if the gun got a Birmingham reproof--the crossed swords mark, which did not appear until 1921. I can't make out the letter in the left quadrant of that mark, but that would give you a date of the first reproof. The latest reproof is quite recent, because the STD under a crown--which means that the gun is proofed for only standard ammunition, not high pressure (avoid American factory 2 3/4" loads, as indicated above)--only came into use in 2005.
Hope this helps.
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 62
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 62 |
 Thanks for all of the input! These proof marks are not easy for a neophyte to interpret-to say the least! Here is a detail of the crossed swords stamp- does it denote the year of proof as 1897?
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,218 Likes: 121
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,218 Likes: 121 |
Thanks for all of the input! These proof marks are not easy for a neophyte to interpret-to say the least! Here is a detail of the crossed swords stamp- does it denote the year of proof as 1897? Hi CD, no it's not 1897 as COL Brown stated the crossed swords didn't come in until 1921. But, if you can give me the SN I can look it up for you. Yes your right, Brit proof marks are a bit of a mine field! Best! Greg
Gregory J. Westberg
MSG, USA
Ret
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 777 Likes: 36
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 777 Likes: 36 |
These proof marks are actually nice and clear.
The top line on the RH barrel is the modern Birmingham set, the line closest to the lumps is the earlier original, black powder London set, used from 1887 to 1925 (nothing much changed for London BP proof until the chamber length mark was added).
What is confusing is that the Birmingham Reproof mark and its date stamp have been added to the original London proof line rather than immediately after the Birmingham proof line. The reason probably being that the was not quite enough room for the date stamp and the Reproof stamp always seems to be at placed at the muzzle end of the flats.
The crossed swords give the date of the MOST RECENT proof: 1997.
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