doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Model 21 Pissing Contest

I'll go first.
New to me, pre War 16 gauge WS1/WS2, 6lbs 8oz.
Perfect balance, a very fast Skeet gun. I imagine it will be hell on Quail.
Doesn't everyone just love the Model 21??

Hey, it's all in what YOU like...I have handled some British guns, and American guns by famous makers, that I didnt like the feel of...That 21 looks good to me....Let em whine....

Of all the 21s, the 16 has the best proportions to my eyes. I have room for it my safe. Nice gun.

Would love to see this gun resting on my arm on a cool fall morning chaseing the fast grouse of South Dakota!
Very nice bragging piece.
And in 16ga to boot!

Points like the finger of God

I'm afraid you'll not get much of a pissing contest stirred up over that gun. I'm not a big Model 21 fan, but the 16 sure tugs at me. Very nice.

The wood is not original and neither is the case, but this 16 works well for me.

Don't concern yourself with what others think.

Bob, not with a foreend like that but each to his own, best, Mike

A big part of what makes small gauge 21 skeets such great grouse/WC (presumably quail) getters is MOI. They are very, very fast. My SR 20s are in the 6# 10oz range, yet they are lightning compared to the 5.5# 48AL20 (alloy receiver) and even a bit faster than the M-12s.

Sam

While MOI is important, weight is still weight, and you still have to carry it. To each his own, but I would not want a 6 1/2#+ grouse and woodcock gun. Too much one-handed carrying required, where I hunt them. I prefer sub-6#.

U R gettin old Larry...

Whatever turns ya on......

What a pansy !

That is a lovely 21 in my favorite gauge. Below are two that are great bird guns....a custom stocked 30's gun that was factory engraved by Ulrich and an early 40's 16 with single trigger, extractors,splinter fore end, and 28" IC&M. The latter gun weighs 6 lb. 12oz.

At 57 I am still perfectly happy lugging a 6.5+ pound M-21 ball and chain through grouse/WC cover. Maybe I'll feel otherwise at 67, God willing.

Funny, just got blasted for whining about carrying a 10# (scoped, slung, loaded) pre-64 M-70 on another forum.

Sam

My 16 ga Tournament Skeet 21 that i recently purchased weighs 6.9.At 71 i plan to carry it a few times,but like Larry i like them under 6 lbs. Bobby

Geeeeez...

You hunt grouse and woodcock, LD?? What I'm willing to tote for pheasants and prairie grouse is very different than what I'm willing to tote in the woods. Pick up Nick Sisley's book "Grouse and Woodcock". Sisley talks about shortening the barrel on an already very light Franchi AL48 20ga to 23", removing all the choke. Result: A 5# gun . . . with which, the first season he used it, Sisley shot 33 grouse, averaging 78%. While Sisley notes that he's never shot that well, before or since, I don't know anyone who'd turn down a 50% average on ruffs, let alone 78%--especially when based on an impressive season bag of 33 birds (all taken in PA, where the limit at the time was 2/day). Some people can't shoot guns that light that well. But if you can, why tote anything heavier, when you're doing a lot of one-hand carrying??

Hey:
If this is a "pissing contest" I think you guys need to get your prostrates checked!!
Jim

At least change water pill prescriptions. dribble dribble.

Depends what you like but for me at 6.8lb it seems heavy for a 16ga gun. I can find lots of 12ga guns of the same or better quality that weigh less. For me the 16 gets interesting when it is less than 6lb

I don't live in grouse country but I do recall this quote from Roger Barlow; "You Can't Build a Grouse Gun Too Light".
He made this statement in connection with either a Darne 28ga or the French over/under sliding bbl action with aluminum frame & bbls, don't recall its name off hand. Both were 5lbs or under as I recall.

Another lightweight that was popular in quail country was the Winchester M59 autoloader. It had an aluminum receiver and barrel that was built from a .020" thick liner wrapped with, what they said was, 500 miles of spun fiberglass. All to save weight.

An old bird hunting buddy from Isle of Palms, SC used to frequent pawn shops and gun stores buying every one of them he could find. I never shot one, but they were reported to be hard kicking due to the very light weight. 'Cose WE all know that light loads would have tamed that, but many people I know down heah' will actually pay more to get 1 1/4 oz. loads just to kill a little ol' bird, or dove. They just don't get it.

SRH

Sorry, but if you can't carry a 6-1/2 lb gun with one hand you need to spend your time in the gym, not in a bird cover.

Both 16ga and 20ga Model 21's have always seemed to me to have good dynamics.
Super lightweight? - No. But weight and dynamic handling are not the same.

After years of slogging through beaver swamps carrying a 7 to 9 1/2 lb. duck gun in one hand, a bag of dekes over my back, and sinking in the mud to my ankles every step and trying to keep from falling head fo'most in the water with the other hand, a 6 1/2 lb. gun in bird cover seems pretty light to me.

SRH

Unless one has grouse hunted in the Northwoods, one has little idea of what it is actually like. From reading Stan's assessment here, I'm pretty sure he has never hunted Ruffed Grouse in the Northwoods, because there is a huge difference in carrying a 7-9 lb gun through a swamp to a duck blind than carrying a 6 lb gun through an Alder swamp or an Aspen thicket ALL day long. I'm trying to be tactful here, but as a dedicated grouse hunter, and unless you are Paul Bunyan, the weight of a shotgun matters a lot for Grouse hunting. A 6 1/2 lb gun is manageable for most people in the Grouse woods. I prefer a gun closer to 6 lbs, even lighter would be better for me. But, I'm a doctor, and not a construction worker or a logger; if I used an axe all day long, I could probably wield an 8 lb 12 ga Model 21 in the Grouse woods, but the way things are for me, I'd rather use the 12 ga Model 21 in a duck blind, rather than an Alder swamp for Grouse and Woodcock.

I thought the gun under discussion was a 16 at a lil over 6? Where did the 8 lb 12 bore come from?...

Ok, LD. Stan mentioned the 9 lb duck gun and I think you know what was meant! Let's try not to be too argumentative with this simple topic of gun weight.

I grew up in Massachusetts and spent considerable time hunting "Partridge" in the thickets of that State as well as Vermont. It was so thick at times that a birds ability to flush and fly around in there was always a source of wonderment to me. Most of my hunting was done with a Sterlingworth 12 ga with 28" barrels. This would certainly NOT be my 1st choice for this type of hunting today. Many of the minor dings in the Sterlingworths barrels yet today were as a result of trying to swing the gun for a shot under these conditions. I eventually switched over to the Churchill recommended approach.
Jim

My 26" 12 Ga. Skeet Grade never felt heavy to me. I quit using it as my primary bird gun because I didnt want to clean so many birds anymore.

I just got back from 2 weeks in northern MI hunting grouse & woodcock. I shot a 29" bbl 6 lb. 16 ga for the bulk of the trip but switched to my 26" bbl 6 1/2 lb 12 ga. "rain gun" for the last 2 days. In the thick popple the my ability to swing was restricted equally with either gun. The 3" difference in bbl length made absolutely no difference & you are going to hit the bbls against popple with either length. The 26" 6 1/2 lb 12 was a little quicker to the shot & easier to carry one handed than the lighter 16 because the balance point is closer to the trigger than on the 16. In my opinion balance makes more difference than a few ounces of weight on how a gun carries until you get to 3/4 lb or so in weight disparity.

I'll concede that one, buzz. I never have hunted grouse in the alder thickets ya'll describe. But, I'd like to someday. I do, however, hunt woodcock in some of the thickest bottoms imaginable. Almost impossible to get through in many places, due to saplings, myrtle bushes and briar patches. At the end of the day you look like you've been sorting out housecats in a burlap bag. I guess there's just something about the northwoods that makes a gun feel heavier.

SRH

Spoken like a man who hasn't been diagnosed with polyarticular osteo-arthritis in his hands, elbows and shoulders.

Thanks for the sympathy.

SIL is 6' 4" pumps iron everyday and carries an under 6 lb gun for the grouse woooods.

Nice 21 16 BTW. Never looked into 21s, but 16 ga is another thing.

Stan: That's ok, I'm not knowledgeable about some specific topics as well. One thing I failed to mention, is that many successful grouse hunters walk the woods in the 'ready' position almost all day. Hence the need for a light gun. A super grouse dog helps (just try to find one of them.....rarer than a less than 6lb 12 b!), but these birds just give the hunter a split second, a glimpse. It is really hard to kill the limit, and I lIken it to the Super Bowl of bird hunting. It takes a great dog and a great wingshot (with stamina) to be highly successful. As much as you like to hunt and shoot, I'm sure you would like it....once you figure the game out. I hope you give it a go sometime! You're sure to have some fun. Buzz

Because the opportunities to swing a gun very far are significantly constrained when hunting grouse and woodcock (unless you walk trails all the time), how well a gun swings for you is not all that important. I agree with the above post that barrel length, in and of itself, is not the real issue; also agree that it will very seldom be the last couple inches of the barrel that will contact a tree as you mount and attempt to engage the target in question. But if you're carrying one-handed by the grip, the longer the barrels, the more weight there will be in front of your hand vs behind it. That may make a difference when it comes to one-handed carrying. Of course one solution, which many grouse and woodcock hunters follow, is to go with a gun that's both short and light.

Had something interesting happen the other day, when I was responding to a flushing woodcock. When I moved my left hand to grasp the barrels, I also grabbed a small branch from an adjacent tree. Didn't have to make much of a swing, but I'm blaming the miss on trying to swing the tree in question in addition to the gun.

You're right, I haven't, and I'm sorry that you have. My post was slightly tongue in cheek and certainly not intended to defame anyone with a disability.

My guess is that most grouse hunting in Nova Scotia is guys like me out for a stroll on trails or fairly open places. With dogs, less so. It was a real eye-opener when an Alabama friend asked if I knew of good grouse habitat. He hunts quail down there and snipe, grouse and woodcock in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, all with a 28.

With me and his dog Rebel, he headed straight into alders and popple. I had no idea what he was doing and prefer my lackadaisical, gun-at-ready stroll with my sniffy Lab. Weight is important so I usually carry a SKB o/u 20, other times a light 1899 12ga Francotte IC/M 26-inch barrels owned by Charlie Billings of New York, captain of the 1912 US Olympic trap team. It's a sweet grouse and duck gun for an old man.

Buzz is dead on there. The gun is usually held at the ready most of the day. That's probably why you see so many old and worn out looking 16 gauge doubles up here.
After holding the gun 'at the ready' for so long you're almost thankful when you get to a clearing in the woods, so to speak, and you can finally relax a bit knowing there isn't a bird there. Right then as soon as you relax knowing there can't be a bird in there and you finally convince yourself of that fact, at that very moment almost on que, that's when they bust out on you. I guess that's why you say the first is for fun all the rest is for revenge.

Yeah, the arthritis thing will diminish your physical prowess like you won't believe.At 55 I could still press 275 overhead and now I can't even press the 45 pound bar without a lot of pain and juggling it around.My girl friend has more strength in her hands than I can muster and has to open the jars of peanut butter.Still can pick up quite a bit from the floor but anything overhead or to the shoulder is problematical.Hurt my shoulder yesterday making a hard right turn and thought I was going to have to call for assistance.I used to laugh at the "old" guys griping about their aches and pains too.

Yeah, a 21 comes around like a 747 on steroids.

OK Chuck, you win!
What kind of dog is that?

Don't think this one has much in common with that piggy airplane, or a squatting elephant for that matter. I kind of like it -- especially showing off Ray Cover's work. Wish I knew even a little about taking photos, this is the best I could do with my cheap auto-focus and no clue.

Jay

What ever that dog is Bob, Chuck is going to need more than the Sunday Times to paper train him.

That's an E-Pointer...Elephant Pointer that is.

Just yankin all you 21 fan's chain. I wouldn't mind having a nice 20ga 21, having shot a few.

Hey Jay, I like your gun.
Here's an early Tournament, 20 Gauge, Factory 30" barrels, 3" chambers

I could be happy shooting roosters with that.

Bob,
How come we haven't met and shot some quail together?

We've got a mutual friend, Mark V. now of New Mexico.
I've got no field dogs, some decent doubles, but being a commercial caterer, I always pack a hell of a lunch.

Here's some dry rubbed Pork Back Ribs, smoked for a little over 9 hours, with a Procuitto Mac 'N Cheese.

Invite him to Myras, Chuck!

You would be treated like Royalty in any hunting party cooking a meal like that. Nice smoke ring on those ribs.