doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Damascus and Twist warning?

This may have been asked before but; what year did the ammo companies start putting the warning "Do not fire these shells in Damascus or Twist barrel guns" on the shell boxes?

Thanks,
Jack K

Probably about the same time they figured out the old guns they had sold years before were, by virtue of their durability, a drag on their ability to sell new ones.

I believe it was in the early 50's

"Ditto"

I don't know when the warnings appeared on ammmo boxes. I know that articles started appearing in the early '30's that all damascus guns where unsafe. Which is interesting because they were still being produced in Belgium.

Pete

Gents,

Thanks for your answers. The 1930's is what I was thinking also about the warnings in gun articles and I guess the shell boxes were soon after that, however I did not know. Some of the last damascus barreled guns were made in the 1920's on special order by Parker and Ithaca. I have 2 Ithacas, one made in 1909 with damascus barrels and the other in 1912 with with twist barrels. I know they were catalog items (at that time) and both guns are marked "Nitro Powder Proved" on the barrels. I did not know about damascus still being produced in Belgium during the 1930's; somehow I thought WW1 brought an end to damascus production and any guns made with those barrels after that were from left over stock.

Jack K

Jack,

I believe they produced damascus right up to the occupation in Dec 1940. I have seen a twin to the 1924 movie that was made in 1934. I know the allies bombed Liege because of the trains. I have never heard of any damage done to Nessonvaux where they actually made the damascus barrels.


Pete

You've probably noticed that even RST prints that Damascus and Twist Steel disclaimer on their shotshell boxes. It is simply a matter of liability and their insurance carrier probably insists on it. Of all the ammunition companies out there one would think RST would be exempt from this simply due to the kinds of guns used by the clientele they manufacture their stuff for.

You certainly don't see it on British made cartridge boxes. Just the warning regarding proof status and chamber length. Lagopus.....

I certainly don't have the answer to the question, and I don't own any of the old two piece shell boxes; but I do have a one-piece box of 2 7/8" 28 gauge Remington Nitro Express shells that I think is from the late 1940's with this inscription under the top flap "These shells must not be used in guns having Damascus or Twist Steel barrels". This box is not dated; but all labels are white with green borders, and on the front is a Remington Dupont logo in a red circle. All shells are roll-crimped.

I have a box of 16ga Winchester Repeater Paper Shot Shells loaded with Smokeless Powder. These are in a two piece box with a load of 2� Dupont & 1 Ounces Shot N0 7�Ch, load # R61D7�C. It carries no warning about Damascus or Twist bbls.
On a sticker on the bottom is;
CAUTION
Do not expose these shells to extremes of heat or moisture. Shells loaded with Smoeless Powder will withstand ordinary climatic changes but will vary in strength if exposed to abnormal conditions.
Winchester Repeating Arms Co.
It then lists patent dates of June 9-30, Dec 8 1896, JUly 17 1900, July 14 1903.
These shells havve Yellow paper & measure 2 3/8" loaded with roll crimp, so should open to about 2 9/16 upon firing.
Miller
PS; The Caution on the box is in Red letters.

Miller,

Great post! There was a problem with powders back then. The proof houses had to find the load between batches to normalize proof. The early "white powder" had all sorts of issues with temp and humidity.



Pete

The box of Remington 28 gauge shells referenced earlier also has a similar warning on the back of the box "CAUTION" "Do not expose shells loaded with smokeless powder to artificial heat as the moisture content of the powder will be greatly reduced and its strength greatly impaired". This print is so tiny that my old eyes can hardly read the inscription; but there is nothing on the box regarding extreme cold.

I forgot that I do have one original two-piece box by Winchester; a box of 410 shells marked "2 1/2 inch 7 1/2 Ch R106 71/2C". The box label is black with red border striping; and features a big red "W" above what appears to be a green shell. Shells inside box are a faded light brown color, roll-crimped, and their loaded length is 2 3/8". There is no Damascus/Twist steel warning on this box; but this inscription is on the bottom:
"CAUTION" "Do not expose these shells to extremes of heat or moisture. Shells loaded with smokeless powder will withstand ordinary climactic changes but will vary in strength if exposed to abnormal conditions". I have no idea as to the age of this ammo; but on the box are these dates "Patented June 9 - 30, Dec. 9, 1896, July ?, 1900, July 14, 1903"

Topgun;
Sounds like the same patent info as on my box of 16s. Where you have the ? is probably July 17, 1900 as this is plainly visable on my box.

Pieper:
That is most likely the correct date; but the label is marred/damaged at that point so that the numbers are not legible. Seems that about the only difference is that the inscription on my box is in black print; whereas you is red print.

Topgun;
Only the caution label is in red. The patent info is on a different label & is in black.

Have a Peters Victor Rustless, Peters Cartridge Division of Reminton Arms Co. (acquired 1934) 2 5/8" 1 1/8 3 1/4 No. 5164 which I believe are pre-WWII with "These shells must not be used in guns with Damascus or Twist Steel barrels."
The box also has "Ammunition That Inspires Confidence"

Here is what I was able to find regarding the patents:

563157 30/06/1896 GARDNER John Paper shell cartridge
http://www.google.com/patents?id=HIpgAAA...157&f=false

572888 08/12/1896 GARDNER John Primer for cartridges
http://www.google.com/patents/US572888?p...ven&f=false

645546 20/03/1900 BLANCH Herbert J. Shot cartridge
http://www.google.com/patents?id=0jFBAAA...546&f=false

http://damascus-barrels.com/uspatent.html

Pete

Looks like we've got it down to the late 30s
http://parkerguns.org/forums/archive/index.php?t-2719.html

Researcher stated early 30s
"IMHO those Damascus barrel warnings that began appearing on shotshell boxes by the early 1930s were more a thinly veiled attempt to coerce shooters into buying new guns, though they probably did have some relevance to all those cheap Belgian imports that came into North America from 1880 to WW-I. All the major U.S. manufacturers guaranteed their Twist and Damascus barrel guns for nitro powders. Most U.S. manufacturers dropped their composite iron and steel barrels when the sources of the rough tubes dried up with the outbreak of WW-I, but at least Parker Bros. continued to offer them into the late 1920s. There is at least one late Parker Bros. double with Bernard barrels, vent rib, beavertail forearm and single selective trigger known."