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Apr 29th, 2024
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Joined: Sep 2012
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Boxlock
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OP
Boxlock
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I have became the owner of a 16ga Double Barrel St. Etienne Shotgun recently after some battering. I need some help figuring out the age and a value. It's a great looking gun. I'm thinking late 1800"s to early 19's Thanks in advance for any help. [img:center]  [/img] [img:center]  [/img] [img:center]  [/img] [img:center]  [/img] [img:center]  [/img] [img:center]  [/img] [img:center]  [/img] [img:center]  [/img] [img:center]  [/img] [img:center]  [/img]
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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That certainly looks like a Manufrance Robust finished out by another maker.
I would estimate it would date to the 1920s ?
And the value if in good working order with good barrels in the 400ish range, and a nice old gun for hunting.
Mine's a tale that can't be told, my freedom I hold dear.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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I doubt the Robust connection, mainly because of the side clips, I've never seen a Robust with side clips. I do agree on the 1920's manufacture date and the $400 price range.
It has 2.5" chambers and a standard proof.
Steve
Approach life like you do a yellow light - RUN IT! (Gail T.)
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Boxlock
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Boxlock
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Thought for sure it was older, but I'm not the best at finding information.
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Joined: May 2011
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Concur on the early interwar date. I've seen a couple that were alleged to be pre-WWI, but no explanation for that dating was provided. The design is overall more of that seen on interwar doubles. The problem with dating French doubles is, unless it ran through a proof house that stamps dates (e.g., in Belgium, German or Austria) there's no definitive way of knowing. You might be able to suss out a date from the combination of makers' and mechanics' stamps, but I'm not aware of any compendium of such that would make it possible to do so (unlike over in the German-Austrian room, where a couple guys know not only who the mechs were but also whose in-laws they were).
I have a similar gun, sans sideclips, that I and everyone else characterize as a guild gun. I think a guild-er is what you have here. Chances are, if it were a Manufrance it would say so on the gun, and the same for the Robust.
All in all, it's a nice hunting gun and one you can carry all day. $400 seems a fair value, depending on the bore condition.
fiery, dependable, occasionally transcendent
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Bowman,
Since many French guns are "guild guns" of unknown manufacture they typically don't carry the higher price tags that a similar quality British, German or Belgium might carry. Most French guns I've seen are very well made, very light weight, way over-choked XXF/XF are not all that uncommon. The barrel length is metric, so if you measure it, don't expect a round number in inches. I'm a big fan of French guns.
Steve
Approach life like you do a yellow light - RUN IT! (Gail T.)
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Joined: Jan 2002
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
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I'd say post-1924. The little squiggle under the PT, on both the barrel flats and the water table, looks to me like the "supplementary mark for definitive proof in completely finished state". That's not a mark you see on many French doubles, and it's one that is more helpful in dating the gun.
Lots of nice French phrases as well, but most are basically meaningless--more like advertising than anything else. The range is guaranteed (but they don't tell you what it is). The choke's been adjusted (but they don't tell you what it is). And the barrels are made of "safety steel", whatever that is. Looks to be your basic French guild gun, which--as noted above--is not bad news at all, but rather good news because they're pretty solid products. You may find that trigger pulls are quite heavy. That, in addition to a whole lot of choke, is perhaps the major problem I've found with vintage French doubles.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: May 2011
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Yup. It's probably the best $400 double you'll ever find.
Do note - for whatever reason, the bores on the French doubles seem inordinately susceptible to rusting and pitting. So, take care to clean ASAP if not sooner.
fiery, dependable, occasionally transcendent
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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The placement of the action Pins and screws as well as the overall shape sure look like a Robust to me.
Mine's a tale that can't be told, my freedom I hold dear.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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I won't dispute you other than to say that AFAIK Manufrance was never shy about putting its name on its product, particularly when it came to the Robust. If you've got more information, I'm all ears/eyes b/c I know I can always learn something here and that makes the price of admission more than worth it. 
fiery, dependable, occasionally transcendent
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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With due respect, this has nothing to do with a Robust.
It is a typical trade gun which were very common between the wars.
The Robust has sleeved barrels, a different third grip, a different forend attachment, no side clips and on and on. It would be marked either Costo or Robust, and the barrel flat markings would be quite different.
This gun looks like an "Helice" to me but one would need to see the breech face to know better. It's impossible to know who made it.
It was proved finished indeed, which is not too common.
It's a good looking gun however, and very typical.
Best regards,
WC
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2002
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Points taken - but it sure looks like my Robust and Costo - I mean at least the forging that the receiver was made from.
Last edited by postoak; 09/10/12 10:36 PM.
Mine's a tale that can't be told, my freedom I hold dear.
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Joined: Aug 2008
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Sold one just like it for $400. Looks like we're all in agreement on this one.
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Joined: Jul 2002
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2002
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Well I got one thing right !
Mine's a tale that can't be told, my freedom I hold dear.
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Joined: May 2011
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: May 2011
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Hey, it's already older than most of us and still going strong. It appears a good solid gun (I like the carved fences) and properly cared for it will give years of hunting and shooting enjoyment. These guns carry well and the swamped rib is, IMHO, a real help when it comes to shooting game.
I'd stick with the lighter loads and possibly spreaders if the chokes come back tight and haven't already been messed with. Heavy loads will beat up the wood needlessly. Cutting the chokes now seems a bit sinful - they're only original once and it's made it this far....
I still can't believe you sold yours, Mark.
Last edited by Dave in Maine; 09/11/12 06:44 AM.
fiery, dependable, occasionally transcendent
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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I still can't believe you sold yours, Mark. No regrets on my end. It had extractor issues and tight chambers. And it's not a Lefever. Got some good use out of it though!   
Last edited by Mark Larson; 09/11/12 11:04 AM.
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Joined: Sep 2012
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Boxlock
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Boxlock
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I still can't believe you sold yours, Mark. No regrets on my end. It had extractor issues and tight chambers. And it's not a Lefever. Got some good use out of it though! Your gun looks great, I think I may have some one restore mine now.
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Joined: May 2011
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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From looking at your pictures, Bowman, I don't think there's any real need for more than (a) a gentle, but thorough cleaning to get off what accumulated crud there might be and (b) careful, by-the-instructions application of several coats of a good gunstock wax. Guns like Mark's and mine (below) get that look from good care and decades of use.  and 
Last edited by Dave in Maine; 09/12/12 06:24 AM.
fiery, dependable, occasionally transcendent
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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This gun looks like an "Helice" to me
Pretty sure it's not an Helice, WC. Most of those are so marked with some form of the word around the top lever pivot. But the most telling factor is the visible screw in the top lever. As I understand the Helice system, the screw comes up from the bottom, so you don't have a visible top lever screw. That's true of all the Helice system guns I've seen, as best I can recall. I checked the Verney-Carron catalog material on the V-C Helice gun I owned and there's no screw visible where the top lever pivots.
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Joined: Sep 2012
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Boxlock
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Boxlock
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From looking at your pictures, Bowman, I don't think there's any real need for more than (a) a gentle, but thorough cleaning to get off what accumulated crud there might be and (b) careful, by-the-instructions application of several coats of a good gunstock wax. Guns like Mark's and mine (below) get that look from good care and decades of use.
What would you suggest to use as a cleaner and what brand gunstock wax would you use? Thanks for the help
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Joined: May 2011
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: May 2011
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I would go with the plastic-bristled cleaning brush (similar to a double-ended toothbrush one gets in the pack of steel-, brass- and plastic-bristled brushes for like $3.99 at your favorite big box outdoors store. Mechanically remove the crud from the nooks and crannies and in the chekering. That would go for the metal - extractor areas collect crud as does the inside of the floorplate where the hooks go, so pay a lot of attention there. Dampen a large patch with oil or nitro solvent, then wrap around the end of your brush and work it down in there.
Just a good, detailed cleaning like your drill sergeant would have wanted.
As to a formal disassembly and cleaning the innards that's up to you. I'm always afraid of buggering a screw so I'll take the gun to a professional and pay him to open it up and clean and lube the insides.
When it comes to wax, any of the commercial products are good. For each of them, some will swear by them and others swear at them. Follow the instructions on the bottle. Several thin coats, each allowed to dry and buffed out, are far better than one thick coat slathered on.
A good project for a rainy or otherwise boring evening.
fiery, dependable, occasionally transcendent
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Boxlock
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OP
Boxlock
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I would go with the plastic-bristled cleaning brush (similar to a double-ended toothbrush one gets in the pack of steel-, brass- and plastic-bristled brushes for like $3.99 at your favorite big box outdoors store. Mechanically remove the crud from the nooks and crannies and in the chekering. That would go for the metal - extractor areas collect crud as does the inside of the floorplate where the hooks go, so pay a lot of attention there. Dampen a large patch with oil or nitro solvent, then wrap around the end of your brush and work it down in there.
Just a good, detailed cleaning like your drill sergeant would have wanted.
As to a formal disassembly and cleaning the innards that's up to you. I'm always afraid of buggering a screw so I'll take the gun to a professional and pay him to open it up and clean and lube the insides.
When it comes to wax, any of the commercial products are good. For each of them, some will swear by them and others swear at them. Follow the instructions on the bottle. Several thin coats, each allowed to dry and buffed out, are far better than one thick coat slathered on.
A good project for a rainy or otherwise boring evening. The Blueing on the barrel is rough at best, There is a area about half way up the barrel and about 4 inches long where the previous owner scubed off some rust and now the metal shows. Trying to figure out if I should leave it alone, strip off all of the old blueing and redo or strip off the old bluing and leave it just the metal. What do you think?
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,199 Likes: 7
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: May 2011
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If it was me, I'd leave it alone for the time being. Blueing is no more protection against rust than bare metal. The wax you put over it and the care you give it will be the protection it needs.
I would take it and hunt it this season to see if you like it, if it fits you, and if you shoot it well. If it's going to be a keeper, then you can think about cosmetics. Moreover, if you put it in the shop now, you almost certainly won't get it back in sufficient time to use it this season. OTOH, if you wait until after the close of the seasons where you hunt, then you and your gunsmith will have all the time between then and next season to do the work. And you'll know if you want to keep the gun and spend the time and money on it.
Aesthetically, I'd be reluctant to go too far on refinishing because if you don't do the whole gun, it'll look like you didn't do the whole gun.
fiery, dependable, occasionally transcendent
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Aesthetically, I'd be reluctant to go too far on refinishing because if you don't do the whole gun, it'll look like you didn't do the whole gun. Sort of like putting a brand new tail light on an old car, it just makes everything around it look old and worn out. Steve
Approach life like you do a yellow light - RUN IT! (Gail T.)
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