doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com Adolf Loesche German Gun

I can't find any information about Loesche and such kind of gun.

It's written:
Adolf Loesche, Hoflieferant, Magdeburg
Caliber 16
As I understand it's something between 1912 and 1945.
Is there any catalogue of Loesche guns for mentioned period?











[img]http://i47.tinypic.com/o72adk.jpg[/img]

There's info on Loesche around here somewhere but this is either a Dreyse sideswing or a variant by either Burkhard Behr or Friedrich Stendebach, which both had these bulky actions from the early 1900s till probably just after WWI. I'll have to look but I believe Dreyse was the only one with the sideswing and the other 2 only had tip-up versions. Below is a similar drilling with Emil Kerner's name atop and I assume it was made in Suhl but it is possible it was made at Heinrich Ehrhardt's concern in S�mmerda. Either way, I think yours was proofed in Suhl between 1912 & 1923.



It all began with Johann Christian Nicholaus/Nicolaus von Dreyse(Nov. 22nd, 1787-Dec. 9th, 1867) of S�mmerda and then Franz Karl Rudolf von Dreyse(1822-1894) and then Rheinische Metallwaaren-und Maschinenfabrik, Heinrich Ehrhardt's concern. The Dreyse concern was reorganized by Lieutenant Nicholas von Dreyse(grandson) in 1899 and then in 1901 it merged with Heinrich Ehrhardt's firm.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Johann Christian Nicolaus Dreyse's father was a locksmith and determined that Johann to follow in his footsteps so at the age of 14 he began the apprentice program in his father's shop. Johann fought it at every step wanting to devote his time to studies. In 1805 he completed the program and headed off to Leipzig, Dresden, the Rhine area followed by Paris where he landed up in Pauli's shop where he stayed till 1814,when he returned to his father's workshop with the determination to develop a breechloader, which Pauli had abandoned. Circa 1821 he married and about the same time partnered with a merchant named Kronbiegel making buttons, nails, etc. Kronbiegel soon expired and in 1824 he took on a partner and the shingle read Dreyse & Collenbusch(Carl/Karl). In 1840 & 1841 the facility was built in S�mmerda. Kronbiegel looks to have had a son named Bruno Kronbiegel designed things other than sporting weapons with D&C. In 1900 the concern was in a terrible financial bind and on March 31st 1901 Rheinmetall absorbed them. I've seen some adverts but can't put my finger on them for now.

http://www.gunauction.com/buy/10206252/b...unitions-fabrik
1909 D&C advert forsale

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

It is interesting that Dreyse apprenticed as a locksmith, it has been written that he thought up is idea for a boltaction, watching a door latch work.
Mike

As usual Axel E. has already answered a very similar question in GGCA publication #47/Winter 2011 on a copy retailed by Fritz Schumacher of Aachen. The design is one under 1910 DRP 229533(applied in 1907).



Quite a bit of machining, so I wonder if Friedrich Stendebach sourced and if so who would have performed all the effort for the complex beast. F. Stendebach listed as having shingles in Augsburg, Frankfurt am Main, Leipzig, S�ckingen & Suhl.


Friedrich Stendebach & Burkard Behr had crossed swords by this time.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Oh Raimey! To construct a relation between Dreyse and Stendebach only on the distant outward similarity of a gun is ridiculous! This similarity starts and ends with the detail of barrels swinging out to the side, every other function is different! N.v.Dreyses gun had an eccentrical cam activated by an underlever. It slid the barrels first forward and then out to the side. Insofar it is more a relative of the Gastinne-Teschner-Collath slide and tilt actions than of the much later Stendebach side-swinging action. At the Dreyse, Soemmerda factory these side-swinging needlefires were soon superseded by Franz v.Dreyse's "improved" needlefires that worked on the basic Gastinne slide and tilt principle. The Stendebach guns were undoubtedly made by the Suhl guntrade. And:there was no side-swinging design by Behr, though both competed with similar up-down breaking designs.
This gun is made to Friedrich Stendebach's last gun action patent, DRP # 229533 of 1907. If you are looking for an "older predecessor" of this action, you have to go back to George Jeffries of Norwich British patent # 22 of 1862. Both the Jeffries' and the Stendebach actions are effectively break-open actions turned sideways. On both actions the barrels are held to the breechface by the dovetail-shaped underlug going sideways into a corresponding cut in the action bar. In plan this lug is curved on the Stendebach, wedge-shaped on the Jeffries. (BTW, I am well aware of the difference between Jeffries and Jeffery). To allow the barrels to move away from the breechface both actions have their hinges set over to the left, beyond the centerline of the left barrel. The purpose of both inventors was to get away from the up-down stresses that try to "break open" a conventional gun.
The Behr vs. Stendebach patent dispute was about other designs, Behr's DRP 154950 of 1904 being for a cattlekiller that showed some similarities to both Behr's and Stendebach's designs for unconventional break-open rifles.
Apparently Friedrich Stendebach's action designs, though very strong, were not very successful, reflected by the rarity of Stendebach patent guns and the confusing and muddled history of his many companies. "Friedrich Stendebach, Beiersgrund 3, Suhl" Gun and bullet factory, is mentioned from 1899 on, trademark "STENDA". By 1906 he also had a bullet factory in Leipzig-Gohlis. At the start of WW1 a "Stendebach & Co." existed too, making guns to Stendebach's and Kersten's designs. The "& Co" here was no other than Gustav Kersten, retired from the army. Remember, Franz Jaeger had refused to make guns to his uncle's designs, preferring his own. This Stendebach & Co. went into receivership in 1916, the receiver being Gustav Loesche, Wilhelmstr. 13, Magdeburg, founded 1873 by father Alfred Loesche, "Hofb�chsenmacher" = gunmaker to some court since 1911, mostly a dealer in guns and ammo as he advertized a "gunsmith shop inhouse". The business relations Loesche-Stendebach were intensive before and after the failing of "Stendebach & Co."
Apparently Stendebach then teamed up with the former "maker" of Kersten guns, as there was a "Vierordt, Stendebach & Cie. GmbH" with branches in Frankfurt a.Main, S�ckingen, Gm�nden a.M., Suhl and finally Augsburg. To addto the confusion, there was also a STENDA-Werke GmbH,Amtmannsweg 37, Suhl, owner Max Stendebach, in the 1920s. Augsburg seems to have been the last station of Friedrich Stendebach. Here he offered in the 1930s "original Stendebach guns", Mauser actioned rifles and cartridges and bullets of his own design. For his Mauser rifles he had his own proprietary cartridge, the forgotten 8x71 Stendebach Ideal M30 with his own "Ideal Universal" bullet, a complicated softnose with a hard and a soft lead core, separated by a steel ball. Stendebach's most successful design, in fact the only one still remembered, was his Stendebach Ideal shotgun slug.

Axel:
Thanks for the admonishment as well as the history lesson but I believe I got back on track there at the end. Don't forget the Brenneke Ideal Geschoss also as well as the Brenneke Ideal Verschlu�. Speaking of Brenneke, by adding him to the trio of Burkhard Behr, Dreyse & Friedrich Stendebach, very few non-typical, odd-ball, heavily reinforced designed actions will be found outside of this group. Sch�ler really doesn't fit in that group.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I knew that I had seen a Dreyse & Collenbusch advert from 1908.





Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Also anyone interested in info on some of the Karl Friedrich Phillip Stendebach variants(DRP 196836 & improvement DRP 198200) should obtain a copy of GGCA publication No. 27/Fall 2005 as beginning on page 7 is such an article.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Apparently Rheinmetall retained the established "D&C" name as a trademark for their ammo busines. A translation of the ad:

Dreyse & Collenbush, Soemmerda in Thuringia
established 1817
department:
primers and ammunition
war- and hunting ammunition
revolver-,Flobert- and Sharps-cartridges,(indoor-)target ammo,
blasting caps, primers for artillery ammo,
bang signals for railways, all kinds of primers.
export to all countries
Making of all sorts of related articles according to examples or drawings.

(Larger rimfire cartridges like .32 or .38 short, long or extra long were then called "Sharps cartridges" in Germany for reasons still unknown to me)