doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Hunter Arms LC Smith Field Grade--History?

My nephew just bought a 12 ga. Hunter Arms LC Smith Field Grade, with 30" barrels and extractors and Hunter Arms Co, M'F'G's Fulton, NY and L.C. Smith Field Grade stamped on the barrels. The serial number charts indicate it was made in 1913. What else can anyone tell us about the this particular gun?

I've seen Hunter Arms LC Smiths and Fulton Arms LC Smiths listed on the various web auction sites. Were they made by the same company? If so, what is the history of the LC Smith brand?

BarkeyVA,

Try this link;
http://lcsmith.org/

You will find there the answers you seek! There is a lot to cover on L.C. Smith's. Three owners several changes etc. Hunter arms Fultons are not L.C. Smiths even though they were both made by Hunter Arms. They are box lock guns in two models, the Fulton and the Special. The Special uses the rotary bolt lock up, the Fulton does not.

Chief

The Hunter Arms Company was formed when John Hunter Sr. purchased L.C. Smith Maker, from Lyman Cornelius Smith in 1888 in Syracuse, N.Y. The machinery was moved to Fulton N.Y and production was then began around 1890.
The Hunter Arms Co. was run by John's six sons. Many of the early Fulton L.C. Smiths had the same attributes as the Syracuse L.C.Smiths, the sqared barrel lug, the convex ribs on the under side of the receiver, 24 lines per inch checkering on the lowest grade Quality 2's, good Damascus barrels, large breech balls and the joint check ejector system. Many of these Syracuse changes were slowly phased out, manly because of man hours/cost.
The highest grade Fulton gun in a calalog of 1892 was the A2 with automatic ejectors, Finest Damascus steel, finest imported English walnut, finist checkering and engraving. The price then was $390, and it was made in 4 different variations of engraving, and the first one has stepped lock plates reminisant of the Syracuse Quality 6 and 7 grades.
The lowest priced gun then was the Quality 1, Stub Twist barrels, line engraved Enlish walnut, price on application ($60)

In 1895, the A3 was made, it was described as the finest shotgun made in the world and it's price then was $740, the most expensive shotgun made here or abroad. The barrels were Sir Joseph Whitworth fluid compressed steel, the engraving was your choice, finest figured Circassian walnut, 32 lines per inch checkering, and as many coats of oil to finish it. There were only 18 made, 16 in 12 ga. and 2 in 20 ga.

I could go on, but the best way to learn about these guns is to buy either Col. William S. Brophy's book "L.C. Smith Shotguns" or for more details and pictures, John Houchins book "The Legend Lives, still available through the Double Gun Shop.

Your son's gun is built on a Regular frame, starting in 1907 they were also available on a Featherweight frame. Most Featherweights were lighter than a Regular frame, but not all.
The Field grade before 1912 was a 00 grade and was the lowest priced hammerless gun made. Then it cost about $32.50 net, but you could order it with automatic ejectors for $10.00 more and the Hunter One Trigger for another $10.00. There were 195,205 Field Grades made.

You might want to visit the LC Smith Collectors website, they have FAQ and other very imformative sites that can give you details. Before 1913, the OO grade was LC Smith's "economy or field grade"- Armor steel, no engraving, solid walnut, 18 LPI flat top checkering, most were made, as yours is shown, with double triggers and manual extractors. You could, however, get both the Hunter One Trigger and selective ejectors on the OO Grade, at extra cost.

Around 1912, the Hunter brothers (five) decided to revise the Smith guns, and also change the numerical grading to a named grade--They also revised the shape of the lock plates a bit, so that a lock plate from a 1909 mfg. 12 gauge OO grade may not fit (as a replacement perhaps) a 1914 Field grade-

In the lower grades- pre 1913-- OO, O, 1, 2, 3, Pigeon, 4-- etc and if an E suffix, then an ejector gun. In the post 1913 "revamping" Field, Ideal, Trap, Specialty, Eagle--and up

Your gun is on a std. or sometimes called "R" frame, if it had two lower forward machine screws on the lock plates and a slightly smaller barrel lug, it would be on a FW (featherweight frame) or FWE if an ejector gun.

I have a 12 OO grade made in 1911- 28" Armor steel, DT, Extractors, R frame, choked M&F-- I also have a 1924 Specialty Grade, 28" Crown steel, DT, Ejectors, on the R frame, also choked M&F-- Both fine Smiths were made from the same grade of steel, and both work like a fine watch- The Specialty has finer grained wood, finer cut checkering, engraving, etc- but either one will drop a Rooster pheasant or a barnyard pigeon dead as sin if I do my part-

You might also like to know that 80% of the entire production of Hunter Arms, Fulton NY- regardless of gauge, was the basic field grade with DT and extractors-your grandson can enjoy this fine Smith some day, the Good Lord willin' and the creek not a risin'--

You might also want to get copies of both the Lt. Col. Wm. Brophy book, and more recently, the John Houchins' book on the "Elsies"-- a wealth of information on America's finest true sidelock side-by-side double (and, in case you hadn't yet guessed it, also my favorite as well)!!

The gun has been power buffed and the barrels reblued, possibly by hot salt method. The receiver has also benn polished and the corners of the sidelocks are rounded. I'd keep an eye on the rib solder joints as it may delaminate quickly at some point in its life.

You asked.
Sorry

I'm not sure that I see rounded edges on the locks and frame. I think I just see photo glare. But the shiny barrel bluing did catch my eye. It looks more like a caustic hot blue than a proper slow rust blue. Which can, as Chuck points out, cause problems with the solder holding the ribs to the barrels. And it certainly doesn't do anything good for its value. Hopefully your nephew didn't pay too dearly for this Elsie.

Can't either type blue be brought to a high shine?

I agree with Chuck on the buffing and probable hot salts blue. The easy tip-off on the buffing is the striations and the way the light reflects near the edges. I've seen some soft soldered hot blued doubles that never corroded and fell apart, but that's probably a function of how good the solder joints were to start with, and how well the caustic blue solution was rinsed and neutralized. Time will tell. But even under the best of circumstances, hot blueing old doubles is a no-no.

Hopefully your nephew got lucky and has a still sound shooter that was bought reasonably. There are many refinish jobs out there that are far worse than this, and there are many brand new guns that are not as good as a refinished L.C. Smith. It may whet his appetite to learn more and develop a lifelong interest in doubles. Although many will disagree, this is also a graphic lesson of the constant attrition and destruction of collectibility and value that results from hacking, honing, buffing, blueing, and amateur refinishing of an ever dwindling pool of quality classics.

"the Hunter brothers (five)"

Foxy, If you own "The Legend Lives" I suggest you look in the begining under Hunter Brothers and see how many there were. It wasn't a typo on my end.

Also for your Specialty Grade look at the barrels again, they should be Nitro Steel.

fubar'd again



And BTW: Thomas Hunter represented most of the U.S. makers before the Senate Committee on Finance during hearings regarding the Payne-Aldrich and Dingley Tariff Bills in 1912
http://books.google.com/books?id=QDkvAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA900&dq

STATEMENT OF MR. THOMAS HUNTER, OF FULTON, N. Y., REPRESENTING THE HUNTER ARMS CO. AND OTHERS
The Chairman: Will you state the companies you represent, Mr. Hunter?
Mr. Hunter. The Hunter Arms Co., the Baker Gun & Forging Co., Parker Bros. Gun Co., Hopkins & Allen Arms Co., A. H. Fox Gun Co., Lefever Arms Co., H. & D. Folsom Arms Co., Ithaca Gun Co., N. R. Davis & Sons, and Harrington & Richardson Arms Co.
Senator McCumber: Does the American manufacturer use the unfinished importation?
Mr. Hunter: He uses what are designated in the present bill as "gun barrels rough-bored." That is what we import.
Senator McCumber: To what extent do you use those?
Mr. Hunter: Entirely.
Senator McCumber: You do not manufacture any of them?
Mr. Hunter: No, sir. We have no facilities for making shotgun barrels.
Senator McCumber: Does any other company make them?
Mr. Hunter: There are a few that make them for themselves only. None are made to be sold. We never have been able to buy any in this country.