doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com Jozsef Kirner, Jr. Pesten

Recently a lovely Jozsef Kirner Pesten percussion double was at auction. Seller gave that the bores were 1.2cm at the muzzle and that the brass tip on the ramrod was a just a bit over 1cm.




Lovely stepped locks.









Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I hope I have the gist of the Kirner gunmaking story correct below.

The Jozsef Kirner we've come to chase is actually a Junior to his father, Jozsef Kirner, Senior, and the grandson of Gy�rgy Kirner, who as born in Bavaria in 1784 and hung out the Kirner B�chsenmacher/Gunsmith shop shingle in 1808 in Pest. It seems there may be some controversy/drama surrounding his national identity? More than likely Jozsef Kirner senior was born about the time Gy�rgy hung out his shingle and by circa 1832, Jozsef Kirner, Senior, had his gunsmith's sheepskin. He continued in the craft till 1861, or possibly a bit later close upon 1863/1864 when the management transitioned to Jozsef Kirner, Junior. It would seem that Jozsef Kirner, Senior was the driving force in perfecting the Lefaucheux platform for their sporting weapons. Jozsef Kirner, Junior, was born on November 19th, 1838 in Pest. In 1852, at 14 years of age which I think was typical, he entered the apprentice program. A fella by the name of Emanuel Gyula Bibanco, if I have the name sequence correct, a professional educator being Silesian by birth, started/suggested/implemented a trade or vocation program in the late 1820s wherein a 4 hour course was conducted on Sunday and referred to as Sunday School, seemly the same Sunday School for German craftsmen that Mr. Dietrich Apel has previously described. This school set the stage for the apprentice to gain the tools needed to make it in the world. By 1830 course hours were set as well as the daily curriculum, which was German language based and included a sampling of legal fundamentals as well as basics for the trade. Seems there was an option for a night class or something of the like. In 1841 Emanuel Gyula Bibanco went to his reward and Antal Hampel became principal, where he remained in this position until 1869. During this time mirror institutions were established at Cluj, Gyor, Pecs, Sibiu & Timisoara, all which I think to be in Romania. At this point I bet you are wondering why in the world I'm on this tangent. Jozsef Kirner was a student of Anta Hampel, under whom he completed his studies in 1856 when he was released and began his walkabout journeyman program. Jozsef Kirner travelled to Austria, Belgium, France and England to absorb the latest advances in gunmaking technology before getting his gunmaking sheepskin in 1864. Jozsef either attended, competed or both at the 1862 Hunting Expo in London. But the best I can tell is that Jozsef Kirner, Senior, expired in 1869 and Jozsef, Jr. continued to supply the Hungarian Court( czimet kapta???). In 1867 that the Austrian and Hungarian were consumed with brotherly love and the Austro-Hungarian Empire commenced. The Hungarians used the term king but never emperor. In 1871 Jozsef Kirner received a silver metal at the Vienna World Exhibition, the Ordine della Corona d'Italia from the King of Italy and the Golden Cross of Merit with Crown from the cat in Vienna. I'm not sure when the Kirner's were dubbed as suppliers to the Hungarian court, but it may have been at this time. I believe it was 1873 that offically that Buda & Pest were combined so prior to this date his city would have been Pest.

There's more of course.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

1898 Advert.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

For now don't know where the stepped locks originated but it could have easily have been Anton Mulacz of Vienna also:





Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,

Thank you for posting such an interesting example. The lock profiles are really unique, well to me anyway as I haven't seen anything quite like it before. Your research is always good reads. Reading of the travels and education of young Jozsef was equally as interesting as the artifact.

Regards,

Buchseman

Raimey,

this is an interesting topic!
I have in front of me a little book published by the hunting museum in Ohrada, in Hluboka nad Vltavou, Czech Republic - by the way a place recommended to visit, an interesting collection on hunting, fishing, forestry, and many fine hunting guns, focussing on Bohemia and Movaria.

Sorry I can't copy pictures from this book, but I see these stepped locks in quite some guns:

two different 4-barrel percussion rifles signed A.V. Lebeda a Prague
a percussion double rifle also by A.V. Lebeda
a percussion double rifle signed K. Haberda in Frauenberg (this is Hluboka nad Vltavou!)
another percussion double signed F. Ludykar in Wittingau (this is Trebon, quite close to Hluboka - both in the area of Ceske Budejovice, not far from the Austrian border)
a single shot percussion rifle by F. Nowak in Prag
a single shot percussion rifle by K. Haberda in Frauenberg
a percussion target rifle by J. Anton Kuchenreuter in Regensburg, Bavaria
a double shotgun by C.G. Koenig & Sohn in Coburg
(those last three with locks with the spring in front of the hammer, but nevertheless a small step at the back of the action plate)

No earlier flintlocks or later centerfire guns shown with this "step", seems to be a percussion-time fashion.
Created in Bohemia or somewhere around, my first guess would be Lebeda in Praguue.

Best regards,
fuhrmann

Thanks fellas for reading and commenting. Jozsef Kirner was a supplier to Crown Prince Rudolf which I think to be under the same court as Johann Haberda, F�rst Zchwarzenberg'scher Hofb�chsenmacher , Frauenberg.

http://www.antiquesatoz.com/sgfleece/schwartz.htm

Johann Haberda of Frauenberg too was a most talented gunmaker beginning at the mid point of the 19th century and developed his talent using percussion platforms, there adding choke to scatterguns in an effort to get the most out of that type sporting weapon. Johann/Jan Haberda was supplier to the Habsburg dynasty and it would seem that he obtained this rank circa 1860. It may be that his father too was a gunsmith and Johann continued the tradition.

I'll have to look, but if Anton Vinzenz Lebeda of Prague had developed it, I would expect to see it on J. Novotny's wares.



Lebeda example
I'll have to look closer to see if there are similar stepped lock Lebeda examples. Anton Vinzenz Lebeda purchased the shop of Matthew(?) Brandejsovi in Prague:

"Gustav E. Fükert was born on the 7th of August 1844 and departed this world on the 5th of December, 1918. Being born in 1844 and using the average age for a Journeyman to obtain his brief; therefore, in 1868 Gustav E. would have sprung for the cost of his master’s party. I would venture a guess here that either Jan/Johann, Gustav E., or both, worked in Antonín/Anton Vincent Lebeda’s shop in Prague. Antionin V. Lebeda was born in 1795, and some sources give 1797 which would make him a master in 1821/1822, which some sources give as the date of his master brief, but most info suggests he founded in business in 1820 which with 24 years as an average would pair well with the 1795 date of birth. Lebeda’s final exam in 1820/1821 was the completion of a very intricate and elaborately engraved set of locks. Lebeda’s name is synonymous with arms with percussion ignition systems. Lebeda on his Journeyman walkabout worked in Austria as well as Germany and although some hint that Bohemia was not influenced by the craftsmen in Suhl, I know there was a relationship there as many of Fükert Kronen have Suhl sourced tubes. Anyway upon return from his Journeyman walkabout, Lebeda became the head or purchased the shop of the late Prag gunmaker Matthew? Brandejsovi in 1820/1821 and soon thereafter married Ann Stumpfovou(?), the daughter of a fruit/vegetable merchant."
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post159603

I seem to recall that Johann Kalezky of Vienna offered a stepped lock sporting weapon.
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=204060&page=1

Kind Regard,

Raimey
rse

fuhrmann:
Your reference to Frantisek Novak/Nowak of Praze is most interesting. He too looks to have been a supplier to the Habsburg court also and supplied the family of Schwarzenberk. He like the others mentioned was an upper rung mechanic. Sources give he was born in 1784 but was a master gunsmith in Praze/Praha from 1821 forward to 1857 being the President/chairman(1st?) of the Praha gunsmith's guild from 1835 to 1838 and then again from 1844 to 1848. He should have attained his master gunsmith sheepskin circa 1808. Like Kirner he holds medals from the 1829, 1831 & 1836 Exhibitions in Praha. He like Johann Baptiste Missillieur, 1781 - 1835 who moved to Praha in 1834 after attaining the rank of master in Wien in 1821, came a bit later in their career to Praze/Praha and may have transferred technology. Johann Baptiste Missilieur held at least one patent, with some of his wares stamped with Millisieur a Vienna Patent.




Frantisek Novak
http://www.papilio.cz/en/archiv.php?aukc...07114cf9b9e563e

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Lovely percussion Vierling(or is it 5 tubes?( f�nf ) as I seem to see 5 nipples) peddled by Anton Vincenz Lebeda.

Forgive the grainy image a result of a quick image, but fuhrmann had forwarded me some very interesting info and hopefully he'll comment on the stepped lock sporting arm,which I'd say rivals anything from the period including any wares by the craftsmen on the little Briish Isles. fuhrmann may be spot on with Anton Vinzenz Lebeda being responsible for the stepped locks.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

fuhrmann note login issues with the BBS so with pleasure I'll post his comments.

"I cannot give significant additional comment, have seen the Ohrada museum 10 years ago and took the booklet along then.

......
What I can tell is that the first picture you showed is a 4-barrel gun.
You will see this more clearly in page 0011, of another 4-barrel gun by Lebeda.

What looks like barrel number 5 is actually the ramrod pipe.
Why there is this extra "nipple look-a-like" I do not know.
The barrels are certainly fixed, this is not a turnbarrel construction, there is no additional underside hammer."


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse