doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion Double Rifles, Paradox Guns & Gauge Rifles @ doublegunshop.com William Evans 20b Paradox

I am fortunate to be the new owner of this 20 bore William Evans Paradox.
Very nice original condition. Hopefully I will have a range report of sorts soon.

Very nice indeed!

WOW!!!

Congrats Huvious! Gorgeous, simply gorgeous.

Truly magnificent.

I am envious.

Nitro.

What a GREAT way to usher in the new Spring!

Beautiful. Well done, Huvius!

I have an A. Hollis that is also marked with 'Gunmaker to HRH Duke of Connaught'. I wonder when the switchover was made? Mine was from 1906.

Wow, green with envy, have wanted one since I was 15!!!!

I was able to try the loads supplied with the gun yesterday and they look to be much too fast for this gun. They are Armbrust loads said to be made up specifically for this gun although the previous owner never tried them.
I figured I would have a go at 25yds to see how they looked prior to running out to 50 or 100yds.
The shots crossed by about 7 inches even at that range!
So, my options look to be: going to a lighter load or putting the old gal away to focus on shooting something else.
I unfortunately don't have a chronograph - I know, I do need one - but the remaining loads I have are NOT going through my Evans so the velocity of those is irrelevant.
Suggestions?
The small holes are from a .45...

First of all Huvius congratulations on a fine double...and excuse me for a moment while I clean the drool off my keyboard and the front of my shirt. I thought I had stopped drooling 57 or 58 years ago....reckon not.

It appears your elevation is close and that's a good thing. My experience with doubles has all been with rifles and I don't know how applicable that would be with a Paradox. One would think the same general rules apply. From that and what I've read you are correct, it needs to be slowed down. That, or a heavier projectile which would achieve the same result.

I think I would try two shots at 50 and 100 yards just to see what was going on there.

I will be interested to read what those more knowledgeable than me suggest.

Sorry to appear doubtful of your report, my intention is not to demean you in any way, it's just the nature of the email words, but.....are you positively sure that the shots did in fact cross? The hole on the left came from the right barrel and the hole on the right came from the left barrel?

I only ask because I'm incredulous that Armbrust loads made custom to that gun would behave in such a drastically awful way. I could accept that a wide spread resulted, even though that would be terrible in its own way.

Anyway, I would agree with sharps and try shooting them at longer ranges. I mean, what the hell, you've got the rounds, a few more shot through your barrels wouldn't require that much more cleaning.

Forgive what will definitely look like antagonistic words but, c'mon! I mean, passing immediate judgement after just 2 shots at 25 yards and then "putting the old gal away" seems downright insulting to that beautiful old gal.

Aren't you the least bit curious to know any further facts, even if they're not favorable? You're going to have to work up a regulated load for that wonderful gun sometime, or perhaps you can find someone who does such work for a fee if you're not set up to reload. But you've got to do the honorable thing and pursue regulating that Evans.

The Armbrust load is a duplicate of the Westley Richards Fauneta 20 bore loading and Huvius is aware of that. The load duplicates 1500fps and a 425gr bullet. There were however one or two lesser loadings used by Holland and Holland in the 20 bore Paradox. There may be perhaps other period loadings for the 20 bore ball and shot. Rifled choke guns are rare and extremely rare in the 20. Probably just a few hundred made by all makers. Downloading this cartridge shouldn't be a problem. The Armbrust load getting the velocity at the appropriate pressure was genius.

K.K., responses in blue.

PM - Many Thanks. My main source of information for theseguns, other than the odd article or post over the years, is probably the Roger Lake PARADOX book, which, as you know, deals strictly with H & H so-named guns, which makes clear there were not many of these guns made in ANY gauge. Had no idea of the number of Westleys, etc., but knew they weren't abundant either. I've always maintained that on this site you can get the absolute best free education on all double/single guns. Your reply is a perfect example.

Huvius - I stand corrected on all points. Your initial report seemed so abrupt I didn't have a feel for what your plans were/are. I'll be patiently waiting on the sidelines until your eventual success, and what a grand day that will be.

The Westley Fauneta cartridge was 2 1/2" and I believe so are Armbrusts.
As far as recoil being similar to your NE; that is par for the Fauneta load. The WR Super Magnum 12 is a bit stouter. Were you ever able to get a bore and choke diameter?

PM, the shells made up for the gun are 2 1/2" now that I look closer at them.
Maybe I was mistaken on the chamber length...

There's a new book on Bore Rifles coming out soon by Cal Pappas. He wrote the book about the 600 NE also. I'll ask him today if it's going to include any information about the paradox guns. I'll let you know.

Not to take sides,just putting my 2 cents worth in. When I test a double rifle,I always shoot on two targets,side by side. I shoot one with the right(or under)barrel and shoot the other with the left(or over)barrel, just as quickly as I can get on target. Then I put one target on the other and mark the holes. This is the only way I can tell of the gun is crossing or shooting wide. If I shoot,check point of impact,then shoot the second barrel;then I have waited too long between shots.When shooting more than once from each barrel, I let the barrels cool to ambient temp.between each set of shots. This may not be as important for a double as a cape gun,but I do it just to be consistent.
Mike

Well, the chambers are 2 3/4" as stamped on the underside of the barrels. Thought that was the case.

So, a couple questions may be: are the 20 bore Paradox shells always 2.5" even in a gun chambered for 2.75" shells? Is the 2.75" chamber length to utilize the more powerful 2.75" 20 bore shot shells while keeping with the 2.5" paradox shells?

Pic of the shells:

Again with the blue...

For what it's worth to this thread, Cal said that his new book will have quite a few pictures of these paradox guns but they have been already covered in detail by another book.

I can't find any record of a 20 paradox cartridge using a case longer than 2 1/2".
The Holland loadings were 18 and 20 grains cordite and 1 gun regulated with 25 grains.
Certainly there were 20 bore shotshells at 2 3/4 and 3".
There were only 27 Holland 20 bore pdxes, probably less than 100 Faunetas and the other makers? Not many.
Be nice to get your bore dimensions.

Proofs on a couple of Faunetas showing the 2 1/2" (no LC)

I will get bore and choke dimensions ASAP.
Here are the flats ans the 2 3/4" SHELL stamp

Huvius,
To shoot at only one target at a useable range takes too long to locate the point of impact, you need to shoot the second shot as quickly as you can get back on target. The purpose here is to see how the rifle shoots with the load in question. When in the field,you may very well take longer between shots and not let the barrels cool.You are doing two different things.I usually shoot at around a hundred yards,sometimes eighty.Unless you are checking shot patterns, 25 yards doesn't seem like a good distance to use.Again, you are checking regulation,you may very well have a 25 yard shot while hunting; but first you have to find the right load.
On the other hand, this is your rifle,not mine. You are perfectly entitled to do what ever you want with it.As long as the shells hold out,have at it.I won't get into bench technique.
Mike

Maybe I should shoot the remaining rounds at 50yds with a wide background and see where it is.
Is there any concern that shooting the high velocity rounds could be detrimental to the gun? I wouldn't want to stress it more than necessary.

This may have been gone over by the previous owner and TA but....
The bore choke relationship in the WR Fauneta is typical of most rifled choke guns. However the Faunetas I have seen have a 3 groove rifling system but WR rarely use the 3 groove system on their 12's. Why is this? Holland regulated 1 20 paradox with a heavy 25gr cordite load but reported difficulty in getting it to regulate beyond 50yds. Holland uses a 7 groove system. I have bore measurements from several Faunetas which are all similar but none from any Holland. Are they the same? Just some thoughts.

I would love to know what loads you settle on as my 20 bore 2.5" Simson ball and shot exhibits the exact same characteristics with the faster "Armburst" loads.

Dave,
Do you have bore and choke measurements for your Simpson?

Yes...Both barrels very similar in dimension.
*Note: Standard type rifling not H&H ratchet type.

Bore ~.634" choke ~.606".
Differential @ ~.028".
+/- my nominal ability to measure the choke and groves 100% accurately...;-) I know the bore is dead nuts as I do have 2 good bore gauges.

I had two loads to try both had bullets sized to .628. Both loads were designed to be around 10,000 PSI. Load #1 was tagged at 1569fps and load #2 was tagged at 1350fps. Both loads crossed at 50 meters (It's German so I went metric for sighting distance.)
*Note: Each barrel shot very consistently by itself a 2" spread for multiple shots from the single barrel at 50 meters.

Each load produced a composite group with a 6.75" spread and the shots did cross as in left barrel printed 6.75" to the right of where the right barrel hit on target.