doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Joseph Jakob, Philadelphia gunmaker...

Here's the William Anson overhanging scear patent 1st issued in Britian in 1882 under number 4089(Anson & Deeley's Safety Bolt):

http://www.google.com/patents?id=58lCAAA...882&f=false

I wonder if this patent also has a lone permission use number sequence?

So if the dual screws/pins/scears are based on the William Anson 1882 patent, would that also give us a baseline date for the peddled boxlocks with both?


So maybe WR acquired the rights on the advancement also?
Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, now I think I understand. I am not sure if the Use Numbers for the A and D patents had any relationships between different makers who contracted to use the various A and D patents. Did they all [each] start at number one or another number ? I'll look at some of the contracts in more detail with that in mind.

Thanks for the effort. Assuming that Daly #7 which say has APUN #59 and is based on A&D patent of 1875. Jumping forward to A&D #1152 on William Anson on the 1882 design and for argument's sake let's say it too was issued to Charles Daly, etal. so is it in the same sequence even under Charles Daly or will we see a Daly #7 with #59 on 1875 design and a Daly #??? with #59 also, on the 1882 design, i.e. are all A&D APUNs under the same sequence for Charles Daly?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I forgot to ask another possibly rhetorical question in that what if Auguste Francotte & Charles Daly were under the same APUN umbrella? So, any A. Francotte owners have an A&D APUN or permission use number in the 1000 - 4000 range? I just wanted to see if any of the Daly or Francotte offerings have the same APUN?

Well from a few posts back we have APUN #1002 for Francotte on J. Novotny #3457. Any Lindner Daly owner have the same number on the standing breech?

Or an A. Francotte with APUN #1152 to pair with Joseph Jakob 2962 has H.A. Lindner stamps A&D Brevete #1152 from
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post236425 .

Also I'm searching for other offerings by American firearms merchants with the A&D APUN.



Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Some thoughts -

1. Of the several dozen APUN in the Daly database, I have not (yet) seen an overlap - i.e., two guns with the same APUN.

2. There is not a direct correspondence between APUNs and serial numbers - i.e., if two Dalys have serial numbers 10 numbers apart, the APUN has not been 10 numbers apart. Often it is close, but not one-for-one. In general though the APUNs and Daly serial numbers track, in the sense that the earlier Daly guns have lower APUNs and the older Dalys have higher APUNs.

3. The serial number/APUN correlation is complicated by the fact that in several instances a Daly with a lower serial number has a higher APUN as compared to another Daly with a slightly higher serial number. The number differences are not large, but they are there. This is likely explained by the varying build times of the individual guns, but does complicate things. I can provide examples if you'd like.

4. I have recorded APUNs on William Schaefer & Son boxlocks in addition to the makes you have listed.

5. I own Charles Daly serial number 7 ("lucky number seven"), a boxlock, and can verify the APUN later today. It is in the 50s and the lowest I have yet recorded.

Best regards,
Ken

Mr. Hallquist:
It would seem that Westley Richards had acquired full rights by the time they selected Harrington & Richardson to be the sole manufacture in the U.S. of A. in 1880 and continued for about 5 years. So for arguments sake I'd say 1879/1880 time period. J. Palmer O'Neil & Company advertises as the sole Westley Richards U.S. of A. agent and by Spring 1883 Schoverling, Daly & Gales advertise as wholesale agents of the Harrington & Richardson hammerless Breech loading sporting weapon. Charles Daly seems to be sandbagging and buying time at this juncture and I would say takes feedback from his customers who purchase the H&R A&D hammerless breech loading sporting weapon. From this, someone decides to extent the frame of the Charles Daly hammerless breech loading sporting weapon. Meanwhile, William Anson has developed the Anson & Deeley Safety Bolt of 1882, late 1884 in the U.S. of A., and Charles Daly takes note of it. Charles Daly probably takes a Harrington & Richardson A&D boxlock to Suhl and the mechanics closely inspect every component. All of this is wadded up into a composite design and the result is an 1884 Charles Daly hammerless breech loading sporting weapon. No one really seems to acknowledge the Anson & Deeley Safety Bolt of 1882 as a separate system, and Dig notes it as just belts and braces, so the A&D(1875) permission use numbers must have continued unabated and Charles Daly had a few C. Daly on the A&D 1875 patent but most were on the Anson & Deeley Safety Bolt of 1882/1884. I wonder what the difference would have been for manufacture in the U.S. of A. vs. H&R and being the big fish in the pool in Suhl?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, Mr. R E Couchman seems to represent Anson and Deeley, and later in 1877, Anson only, when contracting the use of the various Anson or Anson and Deeley patents in contracts with Westley Richards in June of 1876, and Dec. of 1877. Couchman also represents the Patentees in a Nov. 1879 patent use agreement with Charles Osborn. Finally for Couchman, I see him signing for the Patentees with the exclusive U.S. manufacturing rights with Harrington and Richardson in Feb. 20, 1880. Late in the 1880s, I see the licensing agreements for the Anson and Deeley patents to Scott, Bentley and Playfair, and several others all signed by Westley Richards. I cannot pinpoint when Westley Richards took over the licensing of the Patents in their own name.

Each gun made with the patents by Westley Richards and also Harrington Richardson was to be marked with an A and D number starting with No. 1. Others were marked with an unspecified numbering system. It seems , in the case of Harrington and Richardson, the use number was also the serial number.

Looking for something else & stumbled on this info about the family of Josef Jakob:

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/51928523/joseph-jakob

"79y 6m 6d
Son of Andreas and Magdalena Darfler Jakob
Gun maker
3222 Monument Avenue, 32nd Ward
Mrs Clara Kusel gave the information for the death certificate.
Was a gunmaker with a shop at 1157 Passyunk Avenue, Philadelphia. Birthplace listed as "Bohemia" and later Austria.
1913-08-11; Paper: Philadelphia Inquirer
"JAKOB - 8th inst., JOSEPH JAKOB, husband of the late Anna Jakob (nee Wittenwiler), aged 79. Relatives and friends, also Harmonie and Liederkranz Singing Societies, and all other societies of which he was a member, invited to services, Mon., 2 P. M., residence, 3222 Monument ave. (32d and Berks sts.). Interment private, Mt. Vernon."

Born in "Bohemia". Spoke German."

Cheers,

Raimey
rse