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Mr. Dup

This post was started by a gentleman wanting an "opinion" on CSMC Fox shotguns. My Websters dictionary defines opinion as "a belief not based on absolute certainty or positive knowledge but what seems true, valid or probable to ones own mind" and I think my response accurately reflects this definition.

I agree with you 100% that engraving choice or wood selection has nothing to do with "build quality" unless the wood selection results in a structurally unsound blank.

I've wanted a CSMC Fox gun since Tony had a display @ the 1993 Grand American & I've looked at over a dozen guns since then & I've seen some very nice ones & some that in my opionion suffered build quality issues. Like I said before, each one needs to be evaluated on its own merit. I actually did give up on finding one that suited me in both "build quality" and configuration & despite my concerns, ordered & put a deposit on a CE grade in September 2009 at the Vintage cup. Part of the deal I made was that they were to send me 3 stock blanks to choose from. They sent me only 1 blank. A very beautiful blank but one that was very poorly grained in the head & wrist which I regected. Over the next 4 months I was repeatedly told they would send additional blanks. By the end of January 2010 I had still not received additional blanks s & was tired of fooling around & I cancled my order. To CSMC's credit they promptly refunded my deposit & someome else got to build my new shotgun. That is why I don't own one.

BTW I do own a CSMC Model 21 which has a few quality issues but is basically a good gun so I'm not anti CSMC. I just think this board is a place to post experiences & "opinions" both positive & negative so that people can make informed decisions based on their formed "opinions".

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While Tony is to be commended for keeping American Gunmaking traditions alive, the sun does not rise and set in his ass. I too have found that any honest opinion of his work is summarily shot down by his cheerleaders, not so much here, but you'd better duck over on SSM

For the record, I was a previous owner of an RBL 28 and have an Inverness on order. I realize these guns for what the are, very workable guns for the price paid.

Rather than spend 20k on a new M21, I will wait for an original that is within my limits of fit. While I have tempted to have a M21 made for me, I realize even if fit for me, it will swing like a pig on a shovel in comparison to one of my Purdeys -not bragging just realizing fact. But I am rare in that I have an affection for both, something that a CSMC 21 will never satisfy.

I feel the same for the Foxes, wait for an original one, therein lies the magic that a copy can never fulfill


Last edited by Clif W.; 03/14/12 03:34 PM.

-Clif Watkins

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Thanks everyone - I was looking for opinions - both positive and negative.

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Anyone know why CSMC won't make a 12 gauge Fox?

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Perhaps because there are so many of the original 12 gauge AH Fox guns available. Finding an original 16 gauge CE grade or higher in 70% of better condition that also fits you is tough. Plus the price af that original 16 gauge Fox will be high. One might as well have CSMC build them a new Fox.

Last edited by MarkOue; 03/15/12 06:54 AM.

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Originally Posted By: Brittany Man
If it's true that Mr.Lucas has built every CSMC Fox but 2, CSMC must be the only gun maker in the word that has one man build one type of gun all by himself.

Responsibility for the finished product or final assembly & finishing possiblty but "build" I seriously doubt.

I'm not doubting that Lou told you that but just think about that statement a little bit & read a few books about how high end shotguns are produced.

The comment made to me regarding turnover of gunsmiths at CSMC was speculation by a very informed person during a discussion of why the CSMC Foxes & CSMC sidelock O&Us seem to vary considerably in build quality. Possibly he was wrong about the Fox guns at least & Mr. Lucas is simply overwhelmed by all that work!


Lucas is the master gunsmith in charge of every Fox project that is built at CSMC...does that mean he strikes the barrels, checkers the stocks, engraves the actions, installs the beads,..etc on every one? No, of course not....no gunmaker to my knowledge has one man that does. It does mean that he oversees the manufacture of every component, creates a few himself and assembles each gun in the whole and times the action. His final step is quality control.

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gspspinone

So what you are saying is basically the same as my comments re. Mr. Lucas (actually I think his name is Louca if we are talking about a small Italian gentleman). In English gunmaking terms he would be called a finisher (final assembly & fitting) & a viewer (quality control). He really hasn't built all but 2 of the CSMC Fox guns as you stated earlier but is responsible for final assembly & QC.

That means other skilled workers such as barrel makers, stock makers, actioners & others are involved in CSMC Fox production & depending on their ability & skill level at the time any one gun is produced may have some impact on quality of the finished gun. It is not implausible to assume some turnover in personnel so the comments re. turnover resulting in some variation in build quality is really not all that far off base. I don't know if "significant level of turnover" is correct or not but that is how it was told to me & I can definitely see that build quality on some CSMC guns is a lot better than others.

I must say that some of you CSMC champions certainly are a loyal lot. You are either more fortunate than I am on the quality issues or perhaps less particular than I am.

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"I must say that some of you CSMC champions certainly are a loyal lot. You are either more fortunate than I am on the quality issues or perhaps less particular than I am."

I have handled far more than a "dozen" CSMC guns and own four originally purchased by me so I know the ones purchased by me have been taken care of and I know the original condition and functioning when they arrived.
I'm not a "champion" and "perhaps less particular than I am" are both subjective comments that get no where in this discussion but simply serve to bolster my assertion that the Internet is "such a poor resource for facts".
As to wood, that is subjective and if you agonize over wood then that's your right. It doesn't mean that the build quality is variable.
If you have facts about your Model 21 build quality, then Post them.
I don't have any build issues with my CSMC guns and no failures as of the present. My latest, as 20/28 A-10 set has been shot only at SC for about 500 rounds with no problems.

I have still to read ANY specific build issues in this Thread and all I see Posted is subjective opinions.

Purdey's, who built what at CSMC, speculations about turnover, old Foxes, are not Germain to this discussion but only show the bias of the Poster.

Now you are correct in that the original Post did ask for opinions. and that is what is contained in this thread.
EOT for me.-Dick

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GW,

Thank God for small indulgences regarding definitions, nits and freedom of speech.

I do not own a CSMC Fox nor will I ever buy anything from Galazan again after my experiences with an RBL. I did not get what I ordered and paid for in form of wood. The fore-end would not lock up on the barrels and fell off every time I fired the gun. I received no end of "lip" and BS from Tony's praetorians in trying to resolve these issues. If you see a used Fox that is well done by all means have at it. If you order new, you are on your own with that bunch.

Just my opinion and my humble apologies to the flock of CSMC apologists.

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All,

I realize that we are beating dead horses here & this will be my last post on this subject but Mr Dup asked for specifics as to "build quality isues" so here goes.

As to Foxes (to the best of my memory). If I had known that I would need to defend my opinion I would have kept a log with dates & serial numbers but unfortunately I didn't.

2 that I considered for purchase & rejected because the bbls were not struck well & the ribs had ripples (I'm not talking about the matting but the straightness of the ribs). Both of these guns looked to be new & unused.

One that I specificaly remember that had to be slammed shut for the bolt to lock closed. Looked to me to be an unused gun.

5 or 6 guns that had loose forends that rattled against the bbls when you picked them up and squeezed the forend against the bbls. Some of these guns were actually CSMC display guns & another potential customer commented on this also while we were standing at the display and was told by a CSMC employee "These are display guns. Yours won't be like that"

The others I that can remember were rejected on subjective opinion as to general fit & finish. Subjectively I've seen some guns that I thought were quite well done but were not configured as I wanted.

As to CSMC 21 guns, my own personal gun was delivered with a loose forend (creaked & rattled againt the bbls), forend wood .072" proud of the metal at the bottom of the forend iron(looked like what you would expect on a Stevens 311), safety fitted so loose it had no positive detent in the safe position. Trigger pulls adjusted with the right bbl pull significantly heavier than the left(not the way it's supposed to be & if you don't beleive me read Schwing's Winchester 21 book on how Model 21 single triggers are supposed to be set up and why). CSMC did correct these issues but took 5 months to do it returned the gun with misstimed & buggered up screws & one of the screw counterbores in the forend latch plate burred up because someone @ CSMC used a screwdriver that was too wide to fit within the counterbore. When I complained they told me they would correct it but I would have to send the gun back at my expense (again). After 5 years of shooting I have used up almost all of the locking bolt adjustment to keep the bbls from rattling against the frame. What this means to me is that the gun was not actioned properly in the first place & the bolt is doing all of the work holding the bbls against the frame.. Based on my past experience with returning the 21 to CSMC I really dread sending it back to have it rejointed when I have the bolt adjustment screw totally bottomed out.

It does look nice, makes a good clays gun & I've had no other issues with it.

The issues with my CSMC 21 are minor compared to the problems a friend of mine has experienced with his but I'll leave any comments up to him if he wishes to expose himself to criticism on this forum.

I wanted to edit this post to clean up some typos & add a few clarification points to a post written in haste & add one final point that Cliff W. already touched on.

I do like the concept CSMC has of offering bespoke versions of American classics like the Fox & Winchester 21 shotguns & I don't want to see CSMC go away. I would still like a bespoke Fox & if I thought the probability was higher that I would be satisfied with the gun upon delivery I would order one from CSMC.

I do think (again "opinion" but I'm obviously not alone on this) that CSMC has some issues re. quality control & customer service that need to be addressed & I hope that they do address them. Not mentioning this when someone asks for an opinion on CSMC Fox guns is a diservice to everyone interested including CSMC. I really get tired of reading "all is wonderfull" reviews & comments on guns, cars & other things I have an interest in.


Last edited by Brittany Man; 03/18/12 05:08 PM.
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