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Dear Shotgun Lovers,

I got an old Hungarian 16/65 double barreled shotgun made by the Hungarian "Fegyvergy�r", as a heritage of my grandfather. Now I am on the way to find out, the exact type of it, when it was manufactured and what I should know about this gun. I made some pictures about the separate parts and about the proofmarks, which I cannot identify.
All what I could find out until now about this gun, that it was made with Belgian barrels, imported by Hungary, in order to export the ready guns to the USA after/around the WWII. The engravings on the left barrel are for the US Patent I think.
The serial number is 10380, exists somewhere a database, where I could find out the exact date of manufacturing?

If anyone could help me in these questions, I would be very thankful.

Best regards from Hungary,
Zolt�n

Lovely set of Hungarian marks from 1930 and I'm not sure just how much info you desire. A start can be found here:
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post179526

I don't see any Belgian preliminary stamps so I'm curious as to how you know that the tubes were imported? It is possible that they could have been but both tubes wears the voluntary mark of tubes in the unfinished state. It seems there are some stamps forward of the flats but I cannot make them out. It was made in 1930 and returned in 1974, 1979 & 1985 for some Nitro reproof. For some reason I seem to recall that it was a condition of the law to return the sporting weapon when the law/rules changed. Maybe you can enlighten us here?

If you want to know all the marks I can begin with the St. Stephen's Crest and continue from there?




Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Hello,

I already read the topic You suggested, no question, there are some similarities.
To tell You the truth, I do not understand too much about proofmarks. I posted these photos to a Hungarian forum and they told there, the stamp FN should stay for the Fabrique Nationale, Belgium. They informed so, because there were some sets of shotguns, which were manufactured with imported Belgian barrels for export to the U.S. after the World War.
The problem is, that nobody can tell (enough) infos about the Fegyvergy�r/F�G in Hungary, because it stopped (went bankrupt) at the middle of the 90's and all databases of the factory lost and as far as I heard, the old 'gunsmiths' of the factory are a little bit incommunicative.
To the Nitro proof: as I know, it is true, what You wrote, there were a period, when the guns had to be controlled again and again on nitro, but nowadays they make it without any proofmarks or stamps.
Now, a Hungarian gun had to be checked every ten years on functionality and security. As far as I know, they check the status of the gun, if there are any visible mistakes/damages, they check the pressure (?), which is needed to pull the trigger (sorry, but I do not know the exact word for this) and they shoot with much more stronger loads to check the endurance of the gun barrels. After that the gun gets a plastic card (but no marks any more), which is like a proof-licence for the gun for the next 10 years. If somebody misses to renew it within 10 years, he can get big problems.
Back to the point: where can You see, that the manufacturing date was 1930?
I would be very happy, if I could read something about all of the proofmarks on this weapon, because on the internet there are not so many online. I hope, this is not too much expected :-)
Best regards,
Zolt�n

No, not too much of a task. Just didn't want to bore you with a bunch of drivel. After WWI, Hungary is noted as continuing with the same Austro-Hungarian marks. Then on July 10th, 1928 they changed to what is seen on your sporting weapon to become more in line with the 1914 International Proof Conference. Starting at the forward end of the flats with what looks to be a set of antlers with a I in the center is the voluntary touchmark for tubes in the preliminary state or unfinished tubes. This mark coupled with the 15.7mm stamp makes me believe that the tubes were home grown and were proofed separate. For a sourced tubeset from another country one would expect to see a triangle with II in the center which is for an in the white tubeset. If the tubes had been 15.7mm on the final pass it would be 20 bore.

Next is the encircled Saint Stephen's crown over a BP which notes black powder proof. The "FN" below that isn't for Fabrique Nationale but for F�st Nelk�li or smokeless proof. I'm not sure on the arrow beside these marks.

Next is the 1st past diameter which is 15.7mm followed by Nem Golyonak, which notes some degree of constriction/choke.

On the underside of the left tube is 1320 which notes the weight of the tubeset in grams. So it should weight 1320 grams. The "2" in it looks suspect and I wonder if the weight was altered at some point or if it was just a poor stamping.

On the underside of the right tube is 408/30 which makes the sporting weapons #408 to pass thru the Budapest proof facility in 1930.

The 16 over C in a rhombus is the chamber info that may have been adopted from some other proof facility. Typically it isn't listed for the Budapest facility but it may just be assumed.

The other touchmarks of the Shield with a N is a later Nitro proof effort. Here's a site with notes on Hungarian marks which appear to be taken directly from Gerhard Wirnsberger's proofmark text possibly with a few additions: http://www.shotguns.se/html/hungary_1928_-_.html

The other marks around the forend hanger are those of the mechanics which either made the tubes, knitted the tubes together to make a tubeset or actually made the sporting weapon. For now I'm not sure which craftsmen used which marks.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

It is interesting because it has a U.S.A. patent number on top of the barrels, I can't quite make out the one, 1598_38. It would be nice to know what it is.

Should be this 1925 U.S. of A. patent #1558158: http://www.google.com/patents?id=t5hEAAA...p;q&f=false


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

S.P.I. sourced tubeset.
If the double had been imported into Hungary it would be similar to the flats below.

Some additional marks on a few Lampagyar variants:








The marks of the wreath/star/whatever was used from say 1949(1945??) to 1956/1957.



Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Thank you for the informations, I am very glad, that I could get such a rich knowledge to my gun.
What does unfinished-proof mean on a barrel?
I know the Monte Carlo and the L�mpagy�ri types, You posted, they were/are both one of the most used shotguns in Hungary.
I post 2 pics about the F�G Victoria belonged to my father, but there must be other proofmark for the manufacturing date, because I cannot identify it. It should be from the 60's as far as I know

The remark "nem goly�nak" means not for bullet. Normally, from these barrels You are not allowed to fire brenekke, because the choke is too tight.
Zolt�n

Zoltan:
It is the same tubeset which passed thru the Budapest proof facility in 1967. Then again in 1978 & 1987. Also it appears that the weight was changed at some point or it is a very poor stamping effort.

Proof on an unfinished tube is just that. Separately tubes are taken to the proof facility with a hole less than the final diameter of the tube. I can't remember the exact number, but only a small amount can be polished away from the final diameter without being out of proof. After the 1st proof rules were enacted, wagon loads of single tubes were take to the proof facilities possibly in an attempt to prevent the loss of a tube in a tubeset if one of the tubes failed.

True, nem golyonak means not for bullet but the reason is that there is some degree of constriction. Common stamps are:

Not for Ball
Non Pour Balle
Nem Golyonak
Jen Pro Broky
Nicht F�r Kugel

The reason they are applied is to note constriction and as you say do not pair well with some slugs.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse