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James M #264786 02/08/12 07:59 PM
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jmc +10

James M #264799 02/08/12 10:36 PM
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Gnomon,I do not believe that you will find one guy here on either side of this issue who wants felons to be able to own firearms. Please read Canvasback's excellent posts about what the anti's have accomplished in Canada. If you take the time to learn about the goals and agenda of the anti-gun organizations and operatives in the United States, you can see that their vision is to take us down the same path as Canada, Great Britain, Australia, etc. In truth, their vision goes further to a place where whole classes of firearms are immediately banned from use, possession and manufacture. We are not just talking about Black guns here. Jonathan Browning easily converted a Model 1894 Winchester lever gun to fire full auto at a cyclic rate of over 450 rounds per minute before the turn of the last century. So even that venerable deer rifle would be banned. The Double Gun you aspire to someday own would not be far behind. Barack Obama has supported legislation to ban the manufacture and posession of handguns and his voting record is 100% anti-gun, and that is meant to affect you and me, not just convicted felons. To suggest this is just a simple little conflict between opposing forces that just cancels out over time is very simplistic and naive. If all gun owners took that attitude, the pendulum would quickly swing in a direction that none of us would like.

Canvasback, thank you very much for taking the time to show those who have their heads in the sand how it is in Canada and the threats we face here if we are not vigilant. I know how hard you and many other Canadians are working to reverse the tide. I wish some folks here would take the time to learn that the two cases of law abiding gun owners getting hammered by the system you wrote about are just a small fraction of the abuses. We have similar cases here where anti-gun county prosecutors go after citizens who use a gun to defend themselves and their families. They are usually acquitted, but the huge legal costs are borne by the innocent gun owner.

What I will never understand is how any self respecting gun owner who claims to support the Second Amendment could read what you posted and think this is a subject that should always be placed on the back page. Clearly, there are many here who need to be reminded occasionally about the real threats we face. This is not the stuff of conspiracy theorists or folks who see black helicopters coming after them. These are easily verifiable facts that can be read in the Congressional Record and a thousand other credible sources.

I wouldn't want the subject of gun rights to dominate or take over the Firearms Forum any more than anyone else. My main reason for coming here is my interest in Double Guns. But we never got close to that scenario before there even was a Misfires section. Dave Weber asked for our opinion about this. It is no longer about whether or not Jim (Italiansxs) intended to stick his thumb in Dave's eye, or disregarded the rules in any more egregious manner than all of the others who have made off-topic posts and threads. Dave, I hope you'll agree. Those who disagree, I hope you'll go back and carefully re-read what Canvasback wrote. Although his hands are full trying to reverse the situation in Canada, he's taken the time to encourage all here to never allow that to happen to us.


A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.

James M #264805 02/08/12 11:22 PM
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I re-read Canvasback's post. I still prefer this topic in another section.

I don't know how you know there are many here that need to be reminded. I don't notice that there are. I don't know why you can't remind them in the MisFires section if they are willing to be reminded. If they are ignoring you they can ignore you here as well as they can elsewhere.

We like it better the way it is. That doesn't make us unaware or complacent or anti-gun rights. I repeat my Paul Revere analogy. Paul Revere was designated as the courier to spread the alarm. He was first there with the information. The things posted on this subject here are available many, many, many places, nearer first hand and sooner.

Have you petitioned Dave for a poll on this matter? I have mentioned it three times now. If Dave is willing you could make your arguments and we can decide. He let us decide some policy on the classified section.

Let me say if you do get a poll I think you are going to lose. And if someone put a gun to my head and made me bet $1000 of my money on what you believe I would bet you think you would lose the poll vote too.

Frankly one of the reasons I like this topic in another section is that I get tired of being harangued by people on my side of the issue. Others have expressed essentially the same sentiment.. Because I don’t want this discussed in this section I must be dumb or uninformed or unaware of reality or don’t know about the anti-gunners or what happened it England or Australia or Canada. But I do know about all those and I still prefer the topic in another section.

I leave the last word on this thread to others.

Best,

Mike

Last edited by AmarilloMike; 02/08/12 11:25 PM.


I am glad to be here.
James M #264806 02/08/12 11:26 PM
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keith;
For the record: My intent here was never to "stick my finger in Dave's eye" or anyone elses eye for that matter.
My intent was and is to solely report upon impending legislation and other issues that could imperil our right to keep and bear arms.
We should all be thankful for the Internet as the mainstrean news media doesn't believe in a level playing field here and has NO intention of letting our side of this issue being fairly reported.
Nor do I believe this issue should dominate discussions here. As a matter of fact; If we get am appropriate change in administration come November this issue could go back on the back burner and no one would be more thankful than me.
In the meantime I think vigilence is the prudent approach and we must remain united.
I'm going to end this with some quotes from Patrick Henry:

The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government - lest it come to dominate our lives and interests.”
― Patrick Henry

The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able may have a gun.”
― Patrick Henry

“Are we at last brought to such humiliating and debasing degradation that we cannot be trusted with arms for our defense? Where is the difference between having our arms in possession and under our direction, and having them under the management of Congress? If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?”
― Patrick Henry

“Three millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us. Beside, sir, we shall not fight our battles alone. There is a just God who presides over the destinies of Nations, and who will raise up friends to fight our battles for us.”
― Patrick Henry






The 2nd Amendment IS an unalienable right.
James M #264810 02/09/12 12:08 AM
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I'm betting that Obama can quote Jomo Kenyatta and the koran with equal facility.

James M #264812 02/09/12 12:14 AM
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Mike, I never even alluded to the possibility that you personally are unaware or unwilling to confront anti-Second Amendment initiatives. But it is blatantly obvious to anyone who has read all 18 pages of this thread that many here are. I don't even harbor the fantasy that Gun Rights threads would cause any conversion among them. But I don't think it would hurt a thing for the many folks who visit this site and seldom or never post to see the issues and know we are engaged and involved. The petty bickering never had to happen. But that happens even in Misfires. I said it several times already. If folks who don't care for these subjects simply did what I do when I see a thread I don't like: Don't click on it, don't go back to it, don't read it... then it would fade into the archives very quickly. But some folks just like to piss and moan. Our friend Last Dollar has probably brought this thread back to the top of the charts more than anyone else. Like a moth to a flame even though he says it burns his wings. Amazing.

I would love to see a poll on this matter, but with one condition. I would like to see voting limited to only those who actually contribute money to Dave Weber for the purpose of maintaining this site. Too many with zero skin in the game, here or in the fight to maintain our rights, flap their jaws and try to thwart debate. A poll tax, if you will. Even then, I acknowledge there is a possibility my side could lose. Many of our International members might not be interested just because our Second Amendment may be of little concern to them. But I would still maintain that the Gun Rights issue never did come close to dominating this forum and what little there is would hardly inconvenience either International members or U.S. members who simply don't click on those threads. Perhaps we could be required to put an asterik in the subject line so everyone would know that it was one of those nasty offensive *Gun Rights* topics. Then you wouldn't inadvertantly click on it and become offended.

But on the other hand, when Dave Weber made his post, he stated he wanted to let this run so he could form his own opinion. I'm sure he's noticed that the other Firearms websites with rigid rules and Gestapo like moderators who don't give members the same latitude he gives to us are not nearly as successful. I'm equally sure that if he wanted a poll, he would have started one right there.


A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.

keith #264818 02/09/12 01:20 AM
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Wow ... there haven't been that many posters in this thread. And it's "blatantly obvious" to everyone that many of these posters are unaware of the gun rights info you're compulsively repeating? Well, for the record, you've told me nothing -- zero -- that I didn't already know. I was glad to see Jim's info about the Starbucks boycott. But not the over and over again self-righteous lecturing rest of it. My name is on the contributor list, and I vote for gun rights posts to be in the other section.

Jay

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Jay,

I'm really happy you are not one of the guys who are ignorant of or oblivious to Second Amendment threats. I don't want anyone who is aware of these things to think for a second that I am being critical of them. I went back and note that you too have posted your strong opinion "compulsively" several times.

Welcome to the "over and over again self righteous" club. There's a lot of us in here. Members shall be required to carry strong opinions, a thick hide, and hopefully, a sense of humor.

keith


A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.

James M #264821 02/09/12 05:14 AM
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Italian SxS

Where did you get those Patrick Henry quotes from, the NRA guide on how to convince gun owners the bogie man is after his guns? Was Patrick Henry at Valley Forge? Trenton? Yorktown? Probably at the library. I may just be a blue collar, rable rousing redneck , but It's the millions more just like me that 'git er done'. Mailing my check today, I vote move to misfires. Go ahead, put me on ignore too.

keith #264823 02/09/12 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted By: keith
Gnomon,I do not believe that you will find one guy here on either side of this issue who wants felons to be able to own firearms. Please read Canvasback's excellent posts about what the anti's have accomplished in Canada. If you take the time to learn about the goals and agenda of the anti-gun organizations and operatives in the United States, you can see that their vision is to take us down the same path as Canada, Great Britain, Australia, etc. In truth, their vision goes further to a place where whole classes of firearms are immediately banned from use, possession and manufacture...


Keith - I shortened your post for the sake of brevity - no need to make people scroll thru it. Thank you for taking the time to respond to what you perceive of my "ignorance" but I can assure you that I have taken the time to learn about the "antis" - it's just that I reach different conclusions and behave and vote differently than you. I have no delusions that there are not people who want to disarm us. Canvas' post was interesting and a good explication of a Canadian's perspective but as a hunting visitor to Canada I have always had an easy time including air travel with my guns. I realize it isn't the same and not what Canvas was talking about but nonetheless that is my experience.

In the past few years (yes, during Obama's administration) we have experienced a resurgence of gun rights and the only gun hysteria seems to have come from the far right. We are not facing a "gun-grabbing" crisis in the coming election - we are facing a crisis where the presidency of the United States might be bought and paid for by 3 or 4 people, some of whom have loyalties to other sovereign nations. That scares me - not some noisy anti-gun people.

Most of the people I hunt and shoot with are pretty liberal. And we are serious gun owners. I own 8 SxS shotguns, all European; (one of these days I might get a Parker) and 3 rifles, also European, and 3 handguns. Despite stringent gun laws the Europeans make some damn fine guns and rifles.

So Keith, I am active in the shooting world and do know about the politics of gun control and am not the babe in the woods that you suppose me to be.

Anyway, I do thank you for the time you took to comment on my post!

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