doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Thoughts on TIG welding on a barrel

Would like to get some thoughts on this. A fellow posted on the L.C. Smith site and said a friend of his had a 20 ga. Field Gun stolen. The owner is the original owner and the gun is in very good condition, as described by his friend that posted.
A neighbor saw who it was and called the police, they went to the house and the kid was in the process of sawing the barrels off. Poster said that about 20% of one barrel was cut. Wanted to know if another set of barrels were available or should his friend sell it as a parts gun.

I responded and asked how far from the breech the cut was and where it was located (away from rib/s) I figured 20% on a 20 ga. barrel would be somewhere near 3/8". I told him if the cut was 16-18" from the breech, I would find someone that was an excellent TIG welder, weld it. Also said he should have a plug made to fit the bore under the cut and it should be made out of something that the tungsten wouldn't adhere to. Or no plug and the I.D. would have to be honed in that area. Naturally the outside would have to be addressed also.
Just my thought. Any others?

JDW:
You might find a set of barrels. But welding up these is a bad idea. At least its not a Boss.

what if it had been a Crown Grade ! Bobby

Bobby:
I'm referring to the value of loss, sir. I wouldn't weld a Boss barrel either.

Dear Mr. Welder, better sign off all your assets before starting this jhob.

I bought a Fox Sterly from a local shop some years ago. Nothing special about it. hunted it for a week or so, and noticed that a spot on the right Bbl changed color. It had been welded. The shop owner determined that, gave me my money back, without me asking for it, and cut the bbls into pieces in front of my very eyes..

If it were my gun, I think I would be looking to saw something off that kid . . . .

With some reservations, I think there might be a possibility that this could be done safely. I'd be leery of doing this if the cut/weld area was anywhere between the breech and several inches ahead of the forearm area where your fingers could be damaged if the repair failed. My first several shots would definitely be done with heavy loads and the gun tied to a tire and a long string to pull the trigger... you know, American Proof House. Then if it held, low pressure loads only. If the cut was anywhere near the ribs, the heat would almost certainly melt the solder joint. If it was on the side of the barrel away from the ribs, one could do the repair with the good tube and the ribs just under the surface of a tank of water so that the heat could never separate the ribs. I would want to have a close fitting plug of copper bar inside the barrel that would act as both a heat sink, and provide a back-up surface that the weld would not stick to. This is commonly done when TIG welding thin steel. The purpose is not to keep the thoriated tungsten from sticking because you absolutely never want the tip of the tungsten to touch anything or it will become contaminated and need reground. I might also consider filling the barrel with Argon-CO2 gas to prevent scale formation.

After welding and cooling, the copper plug would be driven out and the repair area lightly honed inside and dressed outside. Reblueing would be necessary of course, and it wouldn't be a shock to find that the weld took blueing differently than the base metal.

I said I had some reservations about this, safety being foremost. I don't think barrel steel would be an air hardening variety that would become brittle from welding and cooling, but I couldn't say that for certain. Before anyone pillories me for thinking this could work, I'd ask them to consider that Damascus barrels are composed of a lot more welds than filling in 3/8" of hacksaw kerf.

Keith, thanks for the information, just what I was looking for. The gentleman whose friend owns the gun said he was going to send me some pictures of the area and I will post them.

In my original post I had told him if the cut area was 16-18" from the breech I felt it could be welded. I am not sure of the make-up on the type of steel the barrels are made of, but being a 20 ga L.C. Smith they are steel and were called Armor Steel.

My post about the tungsten tip hitting the barrels was wrong, that's what would happen if I did it.
I also don't think the welding would harden the steel as it is not a carbon steel.

Here are two pictures. Looking at them, it looks like the hacksaw blade did not go all the way through. The other thing is it looks to be less than 16" from breech.

I have welded LC Smith barrels. My barrels contained enough carbon that the weld heat affected zone hardened as it self quenched from the barrels being room temp. This weld was accomplished using low carbon steel rod, which I recommend for this repair. It was then annealed by torch. I think you could use a 4130 rod as well. It would need to be annealed as well. Close inspection for cracks should be made after welding and after filing the weld down. I would even go so far as to use a magnaflux or dye penetrant inspection.

And Keith's recommendations sound right on...copper backer, purge.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but to my understanding, high pressure tube and pipe are welded as SOP in a number of industries. So, with proper tools and technique, why not gun barrels?

Don,
The only concern I have is that the alloys are unidentified. I ended up chasing cracks. I wondered if the alloy used for the barrels was "unweldable" alloy that contained lead (Pb) to make it more machineable, as is common in machined parts that won't get welded. It could have also been that it had high sulphur and not enough manganese to offset the sulphur negative effect on welding (cracking).

Chuck, thanks for your information. I wasn't sure what the barrels were made of. I know the frames were low carbon steel. Since I was not a certified welder, but went through the training and can weld, I never used TIG, and this job I would not do myself.

In the power plant I worked, all of our welders were certified, and yes they did weld high pressure boilder tubes and most of our welds were either magna-fluxed and some were also x-rayed. They also used the dye penetrant on some welds but mainly to see if there were cracks before.

When the fellow first posted his friends dilemma, I thought that it could be welded if the conditions were right.

Well, we do know that there are plenty of unweldable alloys. I suppose some barrels could be such. This finding, however, begs the question of how seamless barrel sleeving is TIGed. Seems to me there must be a way. Also, I wonder if laser microwelding might do away with some of the heating problems??

DDA

The gentleman got back to me and said you can see the cut from the inside and that the cut is 13" from the breech.

It would be great if you could recover the hacksaw shavings. There might be enough for a metallurgist to analyze. I was wondering about laser welding too, but I'm not at all familiar with the process. Laser might limit the heat affected area, but you can't escape the fact that both base metal and filler must reach the melting point of steel to achieve fusion. I'm not sure how you'd accomplish torch annealing on intact double barrels since you'd have to get the welded area up to critical temperature. That might be difficult to do if you had the unwelded barrel and ribs under water to avoid melting the solder. Perhaps you could preheat the copper backer rod to just below solder melting point and play a torch over the weld for a bit right after welding in order to slow down the air cooling quench effect. Just tossing some ideas out. It would be nice to save the gun even if it isn't a super high dollar item. I sure hope the kid that did this has to make full restitution for repair or replacement. I really figured the cut would be at 9 or 10 inches from the breech and all bets would be off. There may be reason to hope here.

I've been searching for years for 20 or 16 gauge dolls head barrels for a nice G grade Lefever that suffered the same fate. There is only about .004" difference in breech width between the 20 and 16 gauge, so I'm not even sure what the gun was originally. I have the action and forearm, but the Police Dept. that sold the parts would not release the 10 inch barrels nor the buttstock that had been cut at the pistol grip.

I just saw Davids' last post that says the cut went all the way through and is only 13" from the breech. That's a bit scarier than 16"-18". But if I still had access to a TIG welder, I'd still want to try it just to see if it could work. Anyone know what average barrel pressure might be at 13"?

I am assuming that there are people out there experienced in welding barrels, as barrels are sleeved? Not the same I know as welding a hacksawed barrel, but barrels are quit safely monoblocked at times.This is not a statement on how safe the cut barrel would be after welding, simply thinking that some of the Smiths that have sleeved a barrel might provide information on the process for welding of barrels.

I did.

Chuck, are you saying that you sleeved this gun and TIG welded the joint rather than soldering? That sure looks better than the usual solder joint, or engraved chicken tracks to cover up the joint. How did this work out?

I say it one more time. Any welder that does barrel work better have liability insurance for barrel work, or zero assets to attach when something anything happens to the gun. Attorney in court. Mr Welder x where do you take your degrees in Metallurgy and Mechanical Engineering? Where and when did you get your pressure welder certification? Is certification current? Tell me about your testing apparatus. [Laughter in courtroom when defendant says he put gun in a tire and pulled trigger with string]. Show me your alloy % chem analysis on the parent metal and what you used to fill it. Also your tech analysis of the completed weld including the microstructure of the steel before and after welding. Why did you put my client at risk doing something you really know nothing about? Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying this is right just this is the way it is today. No different than trap shooter who blows up barrel with homebrew trap load and loses fingers or injures the man beside him. Then he gets a contingency lawyer and sues Remingtom WW federal etc claiming it was a factory load, and Rem WW etc are on hook to prove otherwise. Last comment, companies that do barrel porting, sleeving etc have liability insurance and the guy who does welding is not at risk of losing his home and savings.

I understand your concern, but getting some answers here from some of the most knowledgeable people still doesn't mean the gentleman who has the gun will do so.
Plus what makes you think that you could not fire the gun as it is now. They do port guns. I realize ths is right past the hand hold and would let hot gasses out there, but most of the high pressure has already been lost.

Thank God not everyone thinks about all that stuff all the time. Our world would stop functioning. I'm around enough product liability at work to appreciate your point CB. PL lawyers are a drain on our society.

I remember the GM truck saddle tank lawsuit. I think it was Bryan Pannish who litigated that as a class action. $4 billion award. It got reduced in a settlement. But the point is he got cash from GM, the class got $2000 discount coupons for new trucks, most of which were never used. GM buttered Pannish's bread, knowing he'd go for it, the class got their axxes buttered, and GM paid a tiny fraction. What a racket.

L C Smith Plans & Specifications book list their bbl steel as having about 40 points carbon but no alloy number given. Purely a guess but likely either a 1040 or 1340 steel, if I haven't got my numbers confused. 10xx does denote a plain carbon sttel, I seem to recall 11xx is the leaded variety & 13xx is a mangenese steel. This series having a small manganese % was a quite popular bbl steel as I understand. One steel in this category was sold under the trade label "StressProof" & was often used even for high power rifle bbls.

Several quick thoughts. I would like to see someone attempt to weld the barrel who is reasonably competent. I do not think that a weld by a competent welder should be dangerous. I also have to remember that many of us shoot welded barrels on a regular basis.
As for lawyers (censored)
As for the person with the hacksaw (censored)

Miller,
My look into what we know as chromoly steels suggests that they were being made as trade name steels well before WW2 and probably around WW1. Based on my welding and filing of that LC barrel, I'd guess it might be 4140. It seemed just too tough to be 10xx series.

I think it'd work out if the welds don't crack. I was chasing cracks all over. But I couldn't tell if it was the Galazan tubes or the original LC barrel material that was the culprit.

Miller, as for the metalurgy of the barrels, a while back I went to a scrap yard and bought some aluminum round stock from 3/4"-15/16" cut to 8' long. I wanted 6061 as this machines rather nicely. A fellow came out and put a hand held machine on it and in a few moments it read what the content was and it was determined it was 6061. I would venture to say barrel steel could also be done and will have to ask them.

Chuck, with this being such a small weld, if the area was pre-heated and then welded, I don't think there would be much metal cracking, but like you stated, dye check anyway.
Also if the area did air harden, filing it will tell.

With the right filler metal I would tig it. Reloads with a power that is not very progressive and a light charge should work fine. I believe that the stock will give up befor the barrrel.
bill

yah shooting with progressive light charge loads might work but what happens when owner passes and next owner stuffs it with hot factory loads? duh that sounds like setting a trap for the next guy. just take your lumps and scrap the barrel as several responsible people wrote here.

Nitro, it is not mine to scrap. I am just trying to possibly help someone that has this gun.

Brophy's "Plans and Specifications" book on p.21, on a drawing titled Straddle Mill Lug. gives the barrel material as approximately .40 carbon, and on page 204 in a table of materials for the various parts, lists the barrel as being made of SAE 1020 steel. In either case it is a low carbon steel and shouldn't be subject to hardening from heating and cooling. This is also verified by the fact that the lug and the rib extension are brazed to the barrels with no ill results. I believe that a skilled welder could make this repair by TIG welding and that it would be as strong as the original barrel.

Tom, as always thanks. I should have looked in my book also.

jdw; be sure to pass on full range of comments including those taking prudent approach to scrap out barrel. On second thought why isnt owner posting here to get information first hand? its easy to set up account and sign on. first questions he should ask welder is if man will guarantee barrel wont blow, burst or split with normal factory loads not cream puffs? and if the guy has liability insurance for gun barrels? if the answer to any of these is NO then owner knows what to do with the barrel.

Oscar had a welder that did a number of welds on damascus barrels for him.

I wonder if anyone here could help you find that welder?

I'll say again, it does have enough carbon in the barrels to harden and it does indeed harden from TIG welding and the self quenching caused by room temp barrels. No reading between the lines or specs. BTW, .40% is plenty of carbon to facilitate hardening. 4140 can achieve 500 Bhn or 50 ish RC. That's pretty dang hard. Weld puddle borders can have concentrations of alloying agents, especially carbon, that facilitate even higher hardnesses. I have the dull files to prove it.

I don't believe 20th century LC Smith barrels were 1020 for a minute. 1020 is stuff you use for making muffler tubing not gun barrels. If you've ever machined 1020 you'd understand that it isn't suitable for machining a gun barrel either. It is so long grained and leaves such a poor finish that you would have to invest in additional finishing processes that cost a lot of time and money.

Mike, I'm sure there are a lot of excellent welders out there, thanks for replying.
The really good ones are the ones that will tell you whether they would do the job and what the preperation would be to do it.
Plus they would finish the outside and either magna flux it, x-ray it or the least would be to use the dye.

The thing I want to know from the skeptics, what makes you think this would "blow out" or be a weak spot, steel is going back into a cut. If the metal used is compatable to the barrels steel, what would cause anything to happen. It is not like it was a bulge that blew out and someone was adding a patch to it.

The pressure at 13" I would think is way down by now.
This is just my opnion and unles a metalugist can give a reason, I would, and a few others would like to hear it.

I will email the gentleman and direct him to this site, it is up to his friend on what he wants to do.

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=256810&page=2

This thread above has some pressure data and some wall thickness information posted. It looks like 2500-3000 psi is about where this cut is, of course, a lot depends on the max pressure of the cartridge.

"I don't believe 20th century LC Smith barrels were 1020 for a minute. 1020 is stuff you use for making muffler tubing not gun barrels. If you've ever machined 1020 you'd understand that it isn't suitable for machining a gun barrel either. It is so long grained and leaves such a poor finish that you would have to invest in additional finishing processes that cost a lot of time and money."

Chuck, Tom Martin was correct, the steel used for most L.C. Smith parts including the barrels and receiver was 1020 steel.

This cannot be for all, because most had different types of barrel on them and so I would imagine, other steels. The highest was Sir Josheph Whitworth, down to the lowest Royal Steel on the lowest grade hammer gun. I don't know what the barrels on this page are for, but it clealy shows 1020.

At the top right hand side, you can see the word Featherweight, so this has to be after 1907.

An interesting site on the properties of 1020
http://www.suppliersonline.com/Research/Property/metals/819.asp

Absolutely foolhardy, IMO.

David,
I agree that is what the book says. I just don't believe that the book is accurate.

I feel the same way......

Anywhere between the hands... I'd agree completely. Several inches ahead of the forearm, and the risk drops dramatically. I have two 20 ga. Ithaca Flues that have wicked looking longitudinal splits in the forearm area. I'd be surprised if either did not cause the shooter some left hand injury. The cause was likely snow, mud, a stuck wad, or some other obstruction. I have a 12 ga. L.C. Smith OO Grade I bought for $40.00 for parts. The owner told me he fired the gun with snow in the barrels and split the left tube ahead of the forearm. No injury, just a different sounding report and he saw the leaves in the tree to his left get blown around. If you saw the damage any of these guns, you might conclude that we are crazy to ever pull the trigger on any shotgun, and none of these were welded.

I agree there is some risk of failure if this repair was attempted. Risk of failure does not have to equal risk of injury. I said from the beginning that I had reservations, but sometimes, risk can be managed or mitigated. There are a lot of variables to consider. I sure wouldn't want Goober down at the gas station to weld 'er up with his Lincoln buzz box and whatever damp rod he had laying around. I don't currently own a TIG outfit, but if I did, as an experiment ala Sherman Bell, I'd like to pick up a cheap single shot, or even a junker double, and duplicate this hacksaw damage. Maybe even make multiple cuts at say 2 inch intervals along the barrel... weld them and proceed to load it till it let loose. Then we could discuss the results and argue that one or two barrels proves nothing. So then I'd need more test samples. Please send me all of your high quality small bore doubles to further the cause of science.

Thanks to all. I emailed the friend and directed him to this thread. He got back to me and was quite impressed with the different opinions. He said he would talk to his friend and let him decide what to do.
It is a shame, the pictures he sent of this 20 ga. shows this gun was in very good condition, nice case colors, nice wood for a Field Grade and good bluing on the barrels....before.

I was aware the book listed 1020 for the bbls on that page. Where it is stated as 40 points of carbon is on the page for the bbls only. Personally I feel that when this chart was put in it was simply misstated there as being 1020. 1020 would be a viable option for most of those other parts, most of which were going to be case-hardened, but would not make a particularly good bbl.
4140 does date back a long ways & well could have been used. It is also quite possible different alloys were used over the years or even simultaneously on different grades, but they would all likely have contained that approx 40 points of carbon. The points was incidently an old method of stating the % of an alloying component, 100 points equaling 1%.

I would HIGHLY recommend that if you weld up those barrels that you anneal the area afterwards. If you would run a series of micro-hardness tests from about 1/2" before the weld and continuing across the weld to about 1/2" past the weld you will see wide variations in hardness. This is not a good thing
to leave without annealing. A lot if welds don't fail in the weld, they fail in ductile areas directly on either side of the weld that were caused by the welding process.

If it was my gun I would sell it to someone that wants to learn to sleeve.

Another I agree with the option to have this barrel sleeved.

It seems like a nice science project to go ahead and weld it, but the prudent thing to do would be to have it sleeved.

One more thing: I would bet an aggressive prosecutor could easily get the idea that taking a hacksaw to a shotgun barrel about 13 inches from the breech would fall under the heading of "attempting to make a sawed-off shotgun", which would make the saw operator eligible for an extended stay in the Graybar Hotel. The guy experimenting with welding up the old beater - what's he going to say? "Yeah, I was cutting it there, but I wasn't going to go all the way through?" As a pure scientific experiment, it might be useful to see whether barrels can be welded, but do consider the legalities which might apply. Before you wind up having to pony up $10k or more to ... a criminal defense attorney. (My brothers at the bar will be so pissed at me, for giving advice that would ... cut into their business. )

As to the mope working the hacksaw who started all this, from the looks of the barrel he was about as competent at operating a saw as he was at breaking, entering and getting away, i.e., not very.

In the very early part of the 20th century, in Britain, Brearly had already "discovered" chromium increased strength and ductility in gun barrels. Haynes in the U.S. developed it around that time too. Krupp was doing the same thing (probably a big reason for their reputation of strength) likely well before the rest of them. I seem to recall reading about all the industrial espionage going on around that time. By the twenties, these alloy steels were being used pretty commonly, especially in high quality guns and military arms.

Take a look at this exerpt from Mac's Fox book. There are references directly to chrome-nickel and vanadium steels, "Chromox" etc. associated with 1911-1912 times.
http://books.google.com/books?id=cbRI_7U...eel&f=false

So, I'll stick to my statement that I don't beleive LC Smith had 1020 barrels. Heck that numbering system wasn't even around when chrome-vanadium steels came about. 1020 is muffler tubing.

I hate to comment because I�m a crappy welder but, I design welds all the time so I'll say something. I would approach this question from a different direction.

The most important factor is the stress the weld must withstand. First, make a reasonable estimation of the stress the weld will experience upon firing. Next, decide how comfortable one is with stressing a weld to that level. We will need to know the barrel wall thickness at the saw cut to estimate the stress.

For safety I would assume a high chamber pressure. Then I would consult one of those pressure drop diagrams and conservatively assume a pressure at the saw cut. Then I would calculate the resulting stress in the weld.

If the stress worked out to 5,000 psi, I wouldn�t worry about not knowing the exact metallurgy of the barrels. If the weld stress was 30,000 psi I might think differently.

Anyway, first determine how �good� the weld needs to be. Then decide on the testing and welding procedures needed for peace of mind. The barrel wall thickness is important.

One thing working for this gun is that it is a small bore so the stress equation is more favorable for a given pressure.

Chuck, going through Brophy's "Plans and Specifications", I came across a print from Hunter Arms dated Feb, 19, 29 and this print is for the barrel lug. It calls for SAE 1020 and below that shows barrels saying "steel app. 40 carbon".

They also list, chrome vanadium SAE 6150 to be used for firing pins, if unavailable use Carpenter's 5317.
Chrome vanadium, I believe is drill rod and is a lot harder than barrel steel used then.

This is getting to be interesting in trying to figure out what kind of steel low graded barrels were made of.
I described this earlier in this thread about going to a scrap yard and getting some alumium round stock. I wanted to be sure it was 6160 and asked. One of the workers got a hand held machine and held it on the piece and in a few minutes read the properties of the aluminum, the fellow then told me it was 6160. I wonder if they could do the same with a barrel or receiver.

David,
The lug being made of 1020 is not unreasonable. The stresses are low on it. Barrels are a different thing altogether.

That fella likely performed a conductivity test. It works well for identifying aluminum alloys but I 've not heard of any simple non-destructive test for steel alloys. The issue I see in welding this gun is the cracking of the weld I encountered with my sleeving project. If you don't encounter that or overcome it, it might work out.

There are damaged and blown-up L.C. Smith barrels out there. How large of a piece would one need to have analyzed by a metallurgist to determine the type of steel? I have a blown OO grade barrel, but that may be too old to say it's the same as this 20 ga.

I'm conflicted about this type of query. I really hate to see vintage collectible doubles destroyed or parted out. If this was my Grandfathers' gun and it had sentimental value, I would want to try to save it, and I would be thrilled if I could TIG it and reblue and have a near undetectable repair that allowed me to use it with the usual low pressure loads.

On the other hand, If I bought it at a poorly lit gun show and paid anywhere close to book value, I would be pretty pissed if I later examined it in bright sunlight and noticed that my new baby had a weld repair on the barrels. So while I feel that this may be do-able and probably safe (remember all those Damascus barrels with about a hundred miles of hammer welds fluxed by borax), even someone with the best of intentions may not have any control when it is sold at some point in the future.

Keith, thanks for your interest. The barrels on your OO would also be Armor steel as those on this Field Grade 20 ga.
The OO Grade, introduced in 1898 was offered with Armor Steel. This steel, I believe was made by an American Company and was in used until the end of the company in 1945. When Marlin bought them out and continued making L.C. Smiths, the Field Grade with Armor Steel barrels was still there and stayed until 1950 and again in 1968-71. I am sure changes were made in the steel but the only way to find out is to have as you said, samples for the different years of Armor Steel.

I would be glad to chip in and I'm sure there might be others also, to find out what the properties are in these barrels for future references.

David, if you determine that a 1900 OO grade would have used the same steel as this gun, and would like to test a small piece to determine content, let me know. I had everyday access to a Met Lab until about 2 months ago, but I won't have easy access again until late spring or summer. A couple of the guys I knew who worked in that Lab were gun guys who would have happily done spark, Infrared Spectroscopy, hardness testing and whatever else they do for free, or a beer at most. Government work, you know.
Maybe someone else here has similar access now at similar cost.

Keith, a 24 year difference in age and I would think the steels would be very close, maybe by now a little more carbon content as Chuck was saying.

Plus, the same weld/test could be done on a piece of yours.

Nov. 30, 1895 Sporting Life
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1895/VOL_26_NO_10/SL2610011.pdf

"How Shot Guns Are Made and the Process Through Which They Pass Fully Explained"

The beginning of the manufacture of a gun is the barrels, and it is generally known that no barrels are made in this country except the rolled steel, which is used on the Winchester gun. All gun barrels are now imported, although an attempt was made a few years ago to produce them in this country, but with only partial success. England, Germany and Belgium supply most of the barrels, the latter country doubtless producing the larger quantity. All gun barrels, whether imported direct from the makers in Belgium, or through an importer in this country to the gun manufacturer, are received in rough tubes, which very much resemble a couple of gas pipes, but being somewhat larger at one end than at the other. These barrels or "tubes" as they are called, are merely tied together in pairs, with small wire and 40 to 50 pairs are packed in a box.

More here including Thomas Hunter's testimony regarding the Payne-Aldrich and Dingley Tariff Bills in 1912
http://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=17ixogftgITEblNUWtmFBv96ZvgjK6eFell8GsAWd-KI

Maybe, maybe not. As Drew notes above, even two guns made in the same week may have used rough barrel tubes from differing sources and materials. That's why I mentioned earlier that it would possibly be nice if you could recover the hacksaw shavings from this exact barrel. I'm sure it would be difficult or impossible to spark or hardness test steel sawdust by conventional means, but there may be other tests that could use a very small sample. I'd bet Nuclear Magnetic Resonance Spectroscopy could tell us a lot, but I have no idea where you could get that done or what it would cost. I used that method many years ago in Organic Chemistry Lab as a tool to analyze some very small samples of unknown crystals. It was something that only large universities had at the time. Still, other tests were often needed to confirm results. You don't have a buddy who works at an FBI Crime Lab or something, do you?

This is turning into one of those "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" type discussions scholars had back in the middle ages. At this point you can make an educated guess regarding the barrel steel, but without lab results you really don't know for certain. If the data in so far leads you to believe the barrel can be welded, why not go ahead and weld them, being certain to thoroughly inspect and test for cracks etc when you're done. The barrels aren't worth spit the way they are right now anyhow.
Steve

Why all the worry, Damascus and Twist barrels have welds everywhere ?

You could likely fire the gun the way it is and not see anything more than you would from a ported gun.

Yes it was- Chrome Vandy (AISI 6150) medium carbon steels were first developed by the French- Acier around 1904- electric melt furnace, not BOF-- Henry Ford was on a tour there, and brought the metallurgy back to the USA-- barrel ordnance steels in the early AISi era were most likely a 1530 range- nickel, resulphurized medium carbon- soft steel parts, as called out in the 1981 brownell's brophy book (love that allieration, ey lads) Plans & Specs. for the L.C. Smith shotguns were AISI 1018--FYI

RWTF,
I mean this with all sincerity and not a bit of malice, when you stay on track and don't let your ADD take over, you come up with some damn good information .
Now for the big question, do you think this old LCSmith can be safely welded? Remember stay on track!
Steve

"Remember stay on track!"

Steve, you are asking for a lot, but we will see.