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Raimey-took that course a long time ago-now taking pole growing-
more money in poles. Thre is a Secor on the CD-11 ga Single M/l
original American Case-Mint Gun
Reguards
Bill


J W McPhail
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I meant to add this sometime back but I'm going to post it before I forget. Schoverling, Daly & Gales searched for the best and brightest to help drive their firm. They advertised in Harvard & Yale publications and seemed to draw from those pools.

William Herbert Crawford passed the Harvard entrance exam a year early and was very active in athletics. Against the wishes of his family he left Harvard during his Sophomore year to join Schoverlnig, Daly & Gales where he remained until 1884, when he moved on to real-estate.

For now I can't say where William Sherer, Jr. was educated, but he learned from the best as he was an apprentice to Alonzo Alford, who is considered as a pioneer in the New York gun trade. In the early 1880s, William Sherer, Jr. joined the Schoverling, Daly & Gales firm and remained there till 1889 when he became an employee of the Winchester Repeating Arms Company, where he remained for some 23 years. He was the Far East(Eastern portion of the world reached by ship) salesman.

Alonzo Alford was born on January 28th, 1837 to Ammi and Clarissa G. White Alford in Brooklyn, New York. Having 20 years, he began with A.G. Strong a Burlington hardware merchant. In 1863 he moved to New York and found employment at Merwin & Bray, which later became Merwin, Hulbert & Company. Somehow he migrated to the Ballard Rifle Manufacturing Company attaining the rank of treasure as well as manager. About the same time he was a founder in Alford, Berkele & Clapp which was a New York agent from Eliphalet Remington & Sons. In 1871 he held the position of general manager at the Eliphalet Remington & Sons New York warerooms. In 1878/1879 Eliphalet Remington & Sons experienced some sort of turmoil and Alonzo Alford purchased some part, maybe just the NY branch, which he owned for 2 years before selling it back. In 1881 he resigned and purchased a large interest in a Massachusetts tool and knife manufacture with New York warerooms, which in 1883 was incorporated as the Alford & Berkele Company.

I realize that neither of brothers Alford worked for Schovering, Daly & Gales, but bear with me as the relationships put the gun trade into perspective. Alonzo Alford's borther Albert Gallatin Alford was born on October 14th, 1847. Evidently one of their parents, or both, died while he was yet a boy. Bootstrapping himself thru a stint with the U.S. of A. Engineer Corps, he became the manager of Eliphalet Remington & Sons Chicago retail outlet and then the Baltimore wearroom from 1874 to 1883, when he founded the A.G. Alford Sporting Goods Company. And remember the Samuel Norris(Eliphalet Remington agent)-Mauser debacle.

Back to Schoverling, Daly & Gales and much later in 1899 after Charles Daly's death, on November 25th, 1899 Schoverling, Daly & Gales was incorporated by Jospeh Gales of Elizabeth, New Jersey, Ella Daly King of East Orange, New Jersey and Theodore William Stake of New York City. William Theodore Stake was born in 1861 in NY City but educated in London and then Canada. He was vice president in 1915 and VP, secretary & director in 1918 after Joseph Gales' expiring on June 3rd, 1916(born April 29th, 1847). Some concern, maybe S,D&G offered a scattergun with the tradename T.W. Stake.

Frederic J. Wilbur was a director in 1914.



Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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A hammer scattergun wearing #15810 made it to my door yesterday. It has "Charles Daly Fine Damascus Barrels" on the top rib. No Daly on the locks or anywhere else. 71cm tubes with initials "SA" near the forend hanger and an interesting brace of Sauer-esk Ss along with the early Imperial Eagle found on early Sauers. As it has been said there doesn't appear to be a limit to the number of variations of the Daly peddled guns. I haven't weighed it yet but it seems to be pretty heavy so I fancy a round with it Friday when duck season opens. I engaged it with some Boat-tail Grackles this a.m.







Also interesting is a plug where there appears to have been a swivel just forward of the oval. But I don't see any sign of one being removed from the tubeset so I wonder if there was another set of tubes.
Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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Raimey, here's a picture of my Daly's lock, #15,251 with the Birmingham proofs. What'cha think about the similarity? And the barrels were finished in a deep brown.





If W.&C. Scott had anything to do with the manufacture of this Daly the serial number, 15,251 fits nicely with the table published by Crawford. He indicates about 1871. The style of your gun and mine certainly seems to be in that period. Adding to that, mine has British proofs and the barrels were finished brown. All parts, including the buttplate, carry the same number and appear to have been struck with the same die stamps.




Last edited by Joe Wood; 11/24/11 11:37 AM.

When an old man dies a library burns to the ground. (Old African proverb)
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Same here on the location of the serial numbers, or last 3 digits. The date seems a bit early for Daly but then again if it was purchased in the white, or from components, it would have taken some time to travel. And it was in 1873 that Sauer has it's sporting weapons origins. I think it was in the early 1870s that Charles Daly went to the Brits but they didn't gee-haw as the Brits didn't want to hear what Daly wanted them to make and Daly didn't like what the Brits wanted to sell. So it is entirely possibly that he decided to acquire the components and travel to Suhl to have the sporting longarms finished to his desires/specifications. In hindsight, he knew exactly what he was doing. It will just take time to piece together what that was. I'm curious how many Daly examples are in the 15k range and if he had a contract with a Birmingham firm for tubes with his name atop.

Fast forward to 1907 and Schoverling, Daly & Gales look to have British patent #22946 for a single selective trigger with W. Fairweather as their agent. I couldn't conjure the patent so I was wondering if anyone else had seen it or if there were any Daly's with the single selective trigger?

And another 1903 tid-bit of info. I think it was in 1902 that John Browning went to Belgium to get FN to build the Auto5. By Fall of 1903 S,D&D had ordered 10k copies and sold them by Fall of 1904. I'd say that's a pretty stout Charles Daly-FN connection/relationship.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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Raimey, for your information, the 1662 Golcher on your list is a 16 gauge, and the 1741 Golcher is a 10 gauge.

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Raimey,for your list,I have a 10 bore C.F.Schilling,St.Louis.It's nearly a twin to Dr. McPhails,643 on the action flat and other metal parts,A.S. on right tube,no other marks.

All The Best,
Ric

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eightbore, so noted and thanks for the info.

Ric, thanks for the effort and what might the tubeset length be. I would say that Charles Daly sourced the longarm in white from Georg Lindner who in turned sourced Albert Stobbe, who hung out his shingle in 1865. He had a son named Rudolf Stobbe, which adds to the complexity of the RS initials.

What I can't make sense of is how Henry Modell factors into the equation. I don't even think the owners of the defunct Charles Daly info page even know the true story. Hungarian immigrant Morris Modell entered the U.S. of A. in the early 1880s and by 1889 had his own clothing cart, which he quickly turned into an actual business with a true address. He peddled items to servicemen on leave and actually is purported to have outfitted Roosevelt & his contingent in the Spanish-American war. During WWI Morris' son Henry(1 of 7) was drafted, and I've seen his draft card somewhere, and when he returned sometime between 1917 & 1919 he inherited the firm and looks to have incorporated it as Henry Modell Company, Inc. He became president in 1920. The concern seems strongly centered around clothing & surplus and not sporting arms, but it is possible. I think the sporting goods aspect was added when they acquired the Davega concern.

I don't think Charles Howard Daly was truly at the helm until after Joseph Gales death, and then he more than likely was just a director and secretary. It seems that Theodore W. Stake was still in control. But it is possible in the 1917-1919 period that Henry Modell injected cash into the concern but it appears he had his hands full in taking surplus WWI military items and turning them into useful civilian wares as the country was headed toward a depression. After Charles Howard Daly's demise in 1924, negotiations with the Davega concern added Schoverling, Daly & Gales under their umbrella resulting in March of 1927 in the name Knickerbocker, Schoverling, Daly & Gales, possibly less the Charles Daly trademark name which went to Sloan's Department stores a year later. I'm not sure if the Charles Daly trademark was separated from Schoverling, Daly & Gales prior to the purchase by Davega or not. In 1963 Henry Modell purchased the bankrupt Davega concern. It would seem that post 1928 that a sporting arm wearing the Charles Daly trademark name would have passed thru Sloan's Department stores.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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Thank you Raimey,i find this intersting,the barrel length is 30 and 3/16 inches.

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Hum, that would be something like 76.7cm so I wonder if a little had been shaved off or if at that time the Belgian/British tube makers rolled them to that length?

Joe & I have had a side-bar going and he has discovered that the rib on his Daly in the 15k range is brazed rather than soldered.

As pure, unadulterated conjecture, I think when Charles Daly went to England having a contract on X number of scatterguns, let's say 100 just for numbers sake. I think he had 3 options in mind: source the longarms from the Brits, source components and/or longarms in the white and have them completed in the U.S. of A. or since labour was cheaper, source them as above and utilize European craftsmen. So when he and the Brits didn't gee-haw he picked up his toys and took them to Suhl where Georg Lindner said sure, tell or show us what you desire and we'll make it so. It probably took a couple of renditions but one rolled out to Charles Daly's specifications. After they exhausted the original supply of longarms in the white then they began sourcing from the continent.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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