doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Please help ID this shotgun

Peter:
Nice addition with the armistice date. Possibly supports why any previous dating ceases in 1943. But by 1945 they had a new dating system:



Have you any info on the sourcing of the Belgian produced Krupp tubes by the Italians circa 1932? I too think the firearms merchant wanted no hints or trace of the actual craftsmen. I suppose that if one had the locks off that there might be a touch mark on the frame or locks to point toward a particular maker, who too may have been just a subcontractor.

Does the tubeset weigh 1.432 kg?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,

I think the politics of time played a large role. Mussolini was in power in Italy. Hitler was just coming into power in Germany. They had a mutual admiration going.

Who actually made the barrels is something I can not answer. I would think custom house records of the time would tell the story, but doubt they survive in either country.

I know Beretta starting offering military munitions shorting after they started using Krupp barrels. Later, after the armistice, Beretta was still being forced to supply Germany. At the same time, they claim to have been supplying the resistance. Before the Germans, left all records at Beretta were destroyed. So it would be hard to tell from that perspective as well.

I clearly see 1944 stamped on the barrel flats. I take that to be the proof date. I do not know why, but it is not uncommon to see some Italian guns stamped with the actual date rather than a date code.

Pete

The following is a little speculation on my part.
The forend looks a lot like the forend on my current French 16ga sxs, a prewar St. Etienne gun, right down to the checkering pattern. The rest of the layout looks a bit like some Belgian guns I've seen.

What about the gun having been furnished in the white by a Belgian firm to someone in Italy, who then finished it and had it proofed in Italy?

Dave, I think you are right on the Belgian origin. Belgian firms produced many guns to be finished up in other countries. It would be interesting to see if the ejector mechanism in the forend has any marks on it. Receiver looks Belgian.

Second thought is that the barrels seem rather poorly struck. Really can't say when this was done, so it may have no bearing on origin.

Dave, thanks for the "translation" on chokes.

Gardone was liberated right at the end of April, 1945. I believe that units of the US 10th Mountain Division crossed Lake Garda and claimed the honor, but some accounts say Italian partisans were in control when they got there. 10th Mountain was looking for Mussolini, who had escaped to the Lake Como area earlier. Interesting book about this period is a memoir by a machine gunner in 10th Mtn. named Robert Ellis. It is called "See Naples and Die."

Ellis remembers 10th Mtn. finding a cache of German-seized fine Italian civilian shotguns in Bolzano; 10th Mtn. members tried to ship them home but many were snagged by the evil REMFs. Could this be one of them???

Ellis had to settle for a couple of Italian revolvers, probably Model 1889s, and could never find ammo for them!

I recently had the somewhat melancholy pleasure of driving a Smart thru the very tunnel on the Lake Garda shore north of Malcesine where a large number of 10th Mtn. troopers were killed and wounded by a German 88 that exploded in the tunnel while they were in it. Hard to imagine the violence that lovely area saw in WWI and WWII when you are just a tourist there.

Wow, this is a good amount of information to process. Is there something else I can take a picture of or show that can help you guys out more? I'm assuming based on the information given, there is really no way to tell at this point... Is there anyone that could give me a range of value by any chance? Thanks again for everyone's help!

Jerry

Peter:
I can't recall but when did Italy join the International Proof Commission/Conference. I think it in 1920 or was just after WWI? It may have been on or just prior to December 30th, 1923 when proof became compulsory. The effective date was October 16th, 1924. I have seen dates as early as 1910 when Royal decrees were enacted for proof rules. I believe it was post 1928 that Beretta sporting weapons wear the touchmarks of the Gardone Val Trompia proofhouse. Considering economics and the uncertainty of War, I would look there 1st for a sourcing possibility. Now there are Beretta examples of wartime pistols that wear Belgian touchmarks. And as you note post WWI the Germans had a heavy hand in Belgium and by WWII there were strong connections to Italy. So a Beretta-Liege sourcing line did exist. It is interesting that the "12 c" in the rhombus closely resembles the Belgian & English chambre stamp. The Star holds significance with the Italian Republic and the change from the crown to the star is more than likely found there.


http://www.earmi.it/armi/database/marchiit.htm . It is difficult to find info on the older proofhouse touchmarks and the Italian variant is no exception. But it appears that there are permutations, or different combinations, which note the progression of the proof effort. On the right side it appears that the orientation of a paired set of a Crowned P.S.F.(Polvere Senza Fumo-smokeless powder), Crowned FINITO and Crowned Gardone Val Trompia proofhouse touchmark of a brace of crossed rifles coupled with an anvil & hammer would note a longarm submitted in the final state while the absence of a Crowned FINITO would give a longarm submitted in a state of in the white. So I wonder if a longarm submitted in the white & in the final state would have a brace of similar stamps. In the 3rd row of the 2nd column are the stamps of a smoothbore submitted in the final state. During 1944 everything was all 6s & 7s and it is possible that the longarm was sourced in the white from the Belgians but I would expect to see some preliminary Belgian marks but they may be hidden or have been worked off. But considering price point for Krupp steel, I'd say that most of the Krupp steel tubes on price point weapons, even in the U.S. of A., were procured from the craftsmen in Liege as they addressed mechanization early on and had much lower wages.


Looks like he is making a stab at the Belgian marks, http://www.earmi.it/armi/database/probelg.htm, as well as others.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Jerry, do you have any info on the provenance of this gun, i.e. how it got to the US and when? Former owner any help?

(I would BET this gun is a so-called "GI bringback." Be very interesting to be able to prove it!).

Hello Mike,

No, I don't have much history on this gun, but from what I was told, it was handed down at least two generations, one of whom brought it back from Italy (the person I got it from was Italian). But that doesn't neccessarily mean it's Italian, right? I also got a Rottweil from them, which also has proof marks all under the barrels, but that one is made in the late 70's. Thanks for the info guys, please keep it all coming!

Jerry

You've obviously been re-reading my favorite novel- "The Godfather"--Michael's two Sicilian bodyguards carried short barreled shotguns with slings in the scenes staged in Sicily near Corleone (Heart of the Lion)--Also the name may come from their usage by Sicilian shepards against wolves- Lupo- is wolf in both Italian and the Sicilian dialect-- Che ti dice la Patria--