doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Do you know of an engraver named Kurt Jager Mainz?

Mr. Petrov did not say that Kornbrath made shotguns. I have read and reread what he wrote and he did not say that Kornbrath made shotguns.I once read that August Pachmayr's journeyman piece was made by him in its entirety,including the engraving. Seems strange that an engraver would have to make the entire gun in order to be a journeyman engraver if that is all he wanted to be or apprenticed for.I do not have a profound knowledge of how the German guild system worked however.Someone enlighten me with a translation of the German rules for apprentice whatevers,surely they must be written down somewhere.

Eightbore,

Sorry I was focused on Petrov...what is it you want to know? I've got no beef with you...I'll tell you most anything that you ask (if I know the answer)

Mr. Chambers you have a chance for an independent person of your choosing to review the evidence and report back to the forum. If I’m reading this correctly you’re declining to furnish anything? I don’t want to see ANY of your Kornbrath stuff I want you to show it to a third party of YOUR choosing, here on the forum. That is why I ask if you trusted anyone here. If someone would care to stand in for Mr. Chambers and defend his position I would furnish any and all documentation relative to my position regarding Kornbrath’s journeyman’s piece.

RHD45,
Here (below)(post #24787) is where MP stated that Korbrath made "his journeymans piece" ...he wants us to think it was "European double" (as he labeled the shotgun) but I suspect that he simply knew Kornbrath apprenticed or completed his training in Austria...if I remember correctly, at the same engraving school as Franz Marktl though many decades before.

The true history of our very best American doubles hardly needs another five decades of obscurity because of his trained eye and well read assessment.

Please forgive my curtness with this beginner...yeah, MP's a beginner, just like the rest of us...

If someone/anyone trumps you're understanding with better/stronger/more accurate information about any endeavor, and you don't concede, then you (not you, anybody) are guilty of letting your ego get in the way of your intellect.

Do the readers want accurate information, or do they prefer "oats once through the horse"? anyway here is Petrov's assessment of one of the most important doubles of American origin...


Much of the Kornbrath stuff is at the McCracken Research Library at Cody, WY, I spent about a day with it many years ago. The rest was owned by Wilson, not sure if he still has it or not. I did a lot of research on Mr. Kornbrath and went so far a too interview family members. During one of these I found his Journeyman piece, a European double, owned at the time by his grandson who had no idea what it was. Once I explained what this was they told the other family members and things got a little out of hand, I retreated.

I can't help but laugh over here...I mean.. who finds stuff at a museum? (the gun is at the museum, although the son may still own it)


I must admit Petrov, you have pissed me off and made me laugh like no other member on this system. Maybe I'll write R L Wilson, you don't happen to have his cell block address do you?

Mr. Chambers
I believe you took Mr. Petrovs statement out of context.I believe he was very clear that he was talking about Kornbrath the engraver and not as a gunmaker.I do know that Wilson had quite a file of Kornbrath's personel papers.I have been reading about Kornbrath for over 40 years and have never heard anyone call him a gunmaker.Perhaps it was possible that he could assemble a collection of parts to make a gun and then engrave it,parts that someone else had made.I don't believe that would qualify him as the maker,perhaps the finisher.This is becoming tedious,splitting hairs as it were.

Sorry RHD,
I'll sign off here...and I understand your perspective completely. Please try to understand mine a little, there's just no way a gun produced here on Seneca St. could have made it's way backwards in time to Austria where young Rudolph could have used it as a canvas in proving himself as a journeyman. Wrong or right in the assessment of details that spew out of this beginner, his whole take on things is so preposterous that, perhaps I don't give him enough credit for the things he is correct about. Labeling one of America's highest art shotguns as a European double just doesn't feel like splitting hairs...it smells like oats once through the horse.

If my memory is correct there was an extensive article about Rudolf Kornbrath in the inagural issue, 195?, of The Gun Digest
(I'll try to find my copy).

Concerning Newton rifles. Several years ago when I drove my son to a teaching engagement in Waxhaw, North Carolina while I was killing time I searched out the local gun shop (as is my habit) & asked what they had that was old. They brought out a Model 1895 Winchester and a Newton rifle. I had never seen a Newton before in the flesh but I recalled from reading my friend Ross Beard's book on Carbine Williams that it was with a Newton that Carbine supposedly killed the deputy sheriff who was raiding his still. I didn't buy either one but on the way home I called Ross & told him about it. He immediately called the gun shop & had them hold it for him until he could get up there to buy it. He has later told me that he is fairly certain that it was Carbine's gun. Ross has recently donated a large part of his extensive collection to the recently opened South Carolina Military Museum. If anyone is interested you can e-mail Ross at: beardr@kcsd.k12.sc.us. Ross was also a childhood neighbor of the G-Man Melvin Purvis who was involved in the hunt for and the elimination of John Dillinger. He has a sawed off Parker that was owned by Dillinger and the Model 1911 Colt carried by Purvis. Ross was at our Friday evening event here in Columbia.

Best Regards, George

George,
Interesting about Carbine Williams...another noteworthy Newton story is the last known whereabouts of Chas Newton's personal .33 Newton (.338 Win w/out a belt) with Poldi Anti-corro barrel, was when Robert Kleasen blew off a guys foot with it for trespassing in Wyoming County NY...He then fled to Texas where he went into hiding and was later charged for the butchering of two Mormon missionaries that led to the Texas Chainsaw story. Kleasen was the last known owner of the best of Newtons personal collection. Kleasen was the nephew of Chet Bickers, Newton factory proof foreman and close friend of Charles Newton and Emil Flues. Later the famous underlever drilling that was made up for Newton (in Austria) for Fred Adolph, wound up in the hands of gun writer/photographer Harry O Dean only to be stolen by "High Tech Burglary Gang" member Joe Reece and sold at the Reno Gunshow in the early 70's...you can't miss the gun though...it has a big gold cypher CN right on top where the top lever would be

Looks like we’re not going to get anything from Mr. Chambers on the subject.

If others would like to learn about the Kornbrath Journeyman’s piece and have the info posted here I would be glad to send it to a third party who could then fill in the others leaving out private Kornbrath family contact information. I would need someone to pick that person, anyone you trust is good for me.

If no interest I'll drop it.