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#242293 - 09/03/11 12:46 PM Chanber casting question 9.3x72 Sauer?
Jerry Mouer Offline
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Registered: 10/17/04
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I'm getting frustrated trying to get the cast out of the chamber. I'm using Cerro-safe from Brownells, it melts at 160-180 degrees F. Every time I use it I've had to apply heat to the outside of the chamber to get it out, which leaves me with a useless casting. Are there a few tricks that I can use?
I picked up a Imman. Meffert, Suhl, a few months back, 16x16x 9mmx72. the rifle bsrrel is stamped 118/35, 9mm 72 d. A 9.3x72 from 4 different manufactures will not slide all the way in, about 10mm sticks out. I think that it is the old 9.3x72 Sauer, but I would like to have a casting of it. Any suggestions will help, I'm stumped.
Thanks, Jerry


Edited by Jerry Mouer (09/06/11 03:11 PM)

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#242294 - 09/03/11 01:07 PM Re: Chanber casting question [Re: Jerry Mouer]
skeettx Offline
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Registered: 06/03/08
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Loc: Amarillo, Texas
Yes, do not apply heat to get it out
I just cast a 12 gauge chamber and leade a couple days ago.

Here is what I did.
Chamber and lead very clean and dry.
Blocked the barrel just past the leade.
Heated the Cerro-safe
Poured it into the chamber area,
insured it did not cover the rim area of the chamber.

When the metal was hardened,
Using a wood dowel inserted from the other end of the barrel,
knocked out the casting onto a pile of old tee-shirts.
Used the flat of a hammer to knock the dowel rod.

Great casting

Different subject, the 9mm is .358 and the 9,3mm is .366
Your chamber marking is 9x72 so please used a dial indicator to mic the inside of the barrel at the muzzle and report back


Edited by skeettx (09/03/11 01:27 PM)
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#242296 - 09/03/11 01:21 PM Re: Chanber casting question [Re: Jerry Mouer]
Kutter Offline
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Registered: 02/05/02
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As soon as it's solidified but still hot, push it out of the chamber.

It is under sized when still hot/warm and will expand some predetermined amt (5%?) to full dimensions when completely cooled.

If you leave it in the bbl to cool, it expands and is very difficult to remove w/o damaging it.



I usually take a cleaning rod w/ slotted tip. Put a patch into the tip and insert from the muzzle till it's an inch or so from the mouth of the chamber.

Warm the bbl chamber area to get good fill out. Doesn't need to be any warmer than 100F or so. Then pour the cast. Wait a few minutes for it to solidify and push it out w/ the attached cleaning rod.
Unscrew the casting w/ tip from the rod if it won't just pull off of the tip.






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#242297 - 09/03/11 01:25 PM Re: Chanber casting question [Re: Jerry Mouer]
skeettx Offline
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Registered: 06/03/08
Posts: 2057
Loc: Amarillo, Texas
4-D Dies makes 9x72 Dies

9 x 72 $113.95

http://www.ch4d.com/
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#242309 - 09/03/11 03:20 PM Re: Chanber casting question [Re: Jerry Mouer]
2-piper Offline
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Registered: 12/31/01
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The 9.3x72R Sauer is a bottle necked case. I don't have my book with dimensions at hand but I don't believe there is any part of that chamber which is smaller than the regular 9.3x72R cartridge. The head diameter is definitely larger so the regular 9.3x72R would be a loose fit there.
I highly suspect that the 9x72R is the correct answer. A 118.35ga translates to a "Bore" diameter which will accept a plug gage of .340" but not one of .350" (108.45ga) which could be proper for either the 9mm or the 9.3mm. Gun was likely built prior to 1912.
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#242321 - 09/03/11 05:34 PM Re: Chanber casting question [Re: 2-piper]
Jerry Mouer Offline
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Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 181
Loc: MD
Rifle Gauge Table

A brief table that is pretty helpful for pre-WWI German rifles shows the use of fractional 'gauge' numbers for barrel diameters. This was largest plug gauge diameter that would fit in the bore. The British proof law of 1868 had set up standard gauge sizes from .300" (172.28 gauge) to .450" (51.05 gauge) in .010" increments in the same sense that a shotgun bore is gauged, by the number of round lead balls of that diameter that make a pound. The Germans adopted this somewhat awkward system as well.

Gauge - inch
51.05 - .450
54.61 - .440
58.50 - .430
62.78 - .420
67.49 - .410
72.68 - .400
78.41 - .390
84.77 - .380
91.83 - .370
99.70 - .360
108.49 - .350 very common on 9,3mms
118.35 - .340 somewhat common on 9,3mms
129.43 - .330
141.95 - .320
156.14 - .310
172.28 - .300 very common on 8mms

These are most frequently seen with a / instead of the decimal point, as in 172/28 or 84/77

I pulled this from the German Gun Collectors Assoc.,so I'm not concerned whth the bore size, as you can see 118.35 is comon in 9.3's.
Just tried another shot at a cast, failed again, my plug was not tight enough. try again tomorrow.

Miller, I smoked up a empty RWS 9.3x72R case and it gets stopped at the front of the case. If the 9.3x72R Sauer has a slight bottleneck isn't this what you would expect?
Thanks to All, Jerry







t??

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#242337 - 09/03/11 09:46 PM Re: Chanber casting question [Re: Jerry Mouer]
skeettx Offline
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Registered: 06/03/08
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Jerry,
Did you mic the bore?

I feel sure a .357/.358 bullet is what you need.

If it is a true 9.3 the .357 bullet should fall through the barrel.

If you have an RWS 9.3x72R case, size the neck in a tapered 357 carbide die and let us know what happens.

Mike
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#242341 - 09/03/11 10:11 PM Re: Chanber casting question [Re: Jerry Mouer]
2-piper Offline
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Registered: 12/31/01
Posts: 9981
Loc: Lynchburg TN
Originally Posted By: Jerry
Miller, I smoked up a empty RWS 9.3x72R case and it gets stopped at the front of the case. If the 9.3x72R Sauer has a slight bottleneck isn't this what you would expect?

Only on two conditions.
1; The case being tried is longer than the chamber dimensions.
2; The case being tried has a larger dia neck than chamber dimenaions.
Since both cartridges in question are 9.3mm & both have case lengths of 72mm, I do not see either of these conditions occuring. The 9.3x72R is a rather low pressure cartridge with relatively thin brass, it would not surprise me in the least to see that the neck dia of a 9.3x72R Sauer actually had a neck dia a few thousandths larger than the 9.3x72R. The fact that the Sauer case is bottle necked simply means it is bigger behind the bottle neck, not that it is smaller in front of it.
The 9.3x72R dimensions were originally established around lead bullets & even when jacketed ones began appearing they were jacketed with a soft thin jacket. Most have quite deep grooves which means the bore size is relatively small for the caliber. I would not expect a 9mm bullet to fall through very many older 9.3 caliber bores.
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#242375 - 09/04/11 10:33 AM Re: Chanber casting question 9.3x72 Sauer? [Re: 2-piper]
Jerry Mouer Offline
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Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 181
Loc: MD
Not going to try another casting until I can get a more substancial knockout rod.
Measured the bore at the muzzle with a digital miccrometer .344 and .359.
Measured about 30 old rounds of 9.3x72R's that I have collected over the years, they are all over the map, .34 to .37?.
Reexamed and did some mearurements on the case I smoked up, it is larger by .005 at the rear of the case and that's where it's hanging up. Miller set me straight. Thanks.

What do you think about renting a 9.3x72R reamer and opening it up to the standard 9.3x72R?

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#242380 - 09/04/11 11:09 AM Re: Chanber casting question 9.3x72 Sauer? [Re: Jerry Mouer]
Chuck H Offline
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Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 13248
Loc: Torrance, CA
Maybe this will help.


Edited by Chuck H (09/04/11 11:12 AM)

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#242403 - 09/04/11 02:37 PM Re: Chanber casting question 9.3x72 Sauer? [Re: Jerry Mouer]
skeettx Offline
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Registered: 06/03/08
Posts: 2057
Loc: Amarillo, Texas
No, why wreck the gun?

No, the 9.3 dies will not size the ENTIRE case for the .358 bullet you will need. And the recut chamber will really wear out the brass.

Now for the 9x72R do you have the Sauer variety or the Standard variety?

Stay with the 9mm chamber. AND 35 Remington bullets (projectiles) are much cheaper. And for FUN you can shoot light 125 grain 357 pistol bullets.

For reloading, all you have to do is size the virgin 9.3x72R brass in a 9x72R full length sizing die and load normally from there, not an issue.


http://www.jgsales.com/product_info.php/...cts_id/4402?SID
Mike


Edited by skeettx (09/04/11 02:56 PM)
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#242488 - 09/05/11 08:56 AM Re: Chanber casting question 9.3x72 Sauer? [Re: Jerry Mouer]
Chuck H Offline
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Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 13248
Loc: Torrance, CA
Sounds like skeettx has been down this path before.

Also, it doesn't look like a standard 9.3x72R reamer will fully cleanup the Sauer chamber, based on the drawings.

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#242528 - 09/05/11 02:29 PM Re: Chanber casting question 9.3x72 Sauer? [Re: Jerry Mouer]
2-piper Offline
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Registered: 12/31/01
Posts: 9981
Loc: Lynchburg TN
Chuck;
If you look closely at those two sets of dimensions you will see a 9.3x72R reamer virtually will not touch a 9.3x72R Sauer chamber. The Sauer round has the head dia of a .30-06 while the regular 9.3x72R has a head slightly smaller than a .30-30.
Neck dia of the Sauer round is .004 bigger than the regular one. Everything in between is larger on the Sauer case.
Chamber dimensions of the Sauer round are actually much closer to the 9.3x74R round, but it is not loaded to the same intensity.
I do not think it has been established though that this gun has the Sauer chamber, but likely the 9x72R which is based on the regular case, not the Sauer one.
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Miller

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#242675 - 09/06/11 03:30 PM Re: Chanber casting question 9.3x72 Sauer? [Re: 2-piper]
Jerry Mouer Offline
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Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 181
Loc: MD
Gat a good casting of the chamber, a solid steel knockout rod makes a big difference.

The chamber casting shows that it is a 9.3 Sauer.

9.3 Sauer are almost impossible to come by so that it is inpractial to think I can find a few to reload.

I spoke to an old German gunsmith yesterday and he told me that many of the 9.3x72R Sauers were "normalized" to the standard 9.3x72R in the old country.

I don't think that opening up the chamber to standard is going to "reck a good gun". It seems to me that it is the best option, all things considered.

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#242684 - 09/06/11 04:56 PM Re: Chanber casting question 9.3x72 Sauer? [Re: Jerry Mouer]
2-piper Offline
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Registered: 12/31/01
Posts: 9981
Loc: Lynchburg TN
Jerry;
I fail to undertand this last post. How can you "Open Up" the Sauer chamber to the standard one when the Sauer chamber is larger to start than the standard??
Were they speaking of opening it to the 9.3x74R round. Not sure I would want to do that, that round is close to the .375 Mag in its loading intensity.
I havent checked out the dimensions but that might be a possible source of brass for the Sauer round.
Note that J P Sauer & Sohn probably made a lot more guns in the standard 9.3x72R chambering than they did their own proprietary one.
The Standard 9.3x72R round was developed in the black powder era & saw long service. I can't really confirm this but have read that later Smokeless powder loads of higher intensity were purposely made so they would not chamber in the old black powder proofed guns. Seems this was said to have been done by using a thicker rim on the Smokeless shells.
The black powder 9.3x72R was in about the same class as a BP .38-55 while th smokeless version is close to a .35 Rem.
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#242692 - 09/06/11 05:26 PM Re: Chanber casting question 9.3x72 Sauer? [Re: Jerry Mouer]
skeettx Offline
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Registered: 06/03/08
Posts: 2057
Loc: Amarillo, Texas
Jerry
Your gun, do what you want to do.
As for me, I would make 9.3 Sauer ammo.
What bullet diameter do you plan to use?
Mike
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#242696 - 09/06/11 05:41 PM Re: Chanber casting question 9.3x72 Sauer? [Re: Jerry Mouer]
Chuck H Offline
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Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 13248
Loc: Torrance, CA
It looks like the 9.3 x 74R case might be useable to make cases for the Sauer. A little lathe work on the rim and some sizing and trimming. If it can be done, 9.3 x 74R Hornady brass is available in stock from Midway for $27/20 cases.


Edited by Chuck H (09/06/11 05:50 PM)

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#242715 - 09/06/11 06:49 PM Re: Chanber casting question 9.3x72 Sauer? [Re: Jerry Mouer]
C. Kofoed Offline
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Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 631
Loc: Idaho
Miller is right on all counts (as usual). When I have more time Ill try to help if you still need it.

Chuck, the 9.3x74R will swell or rupture when fired in the larger 9.3 chamber. The head is 12.1 mm vs 11.8 for the 74R, and wont allow fire-formed cases to expand, so they may rupture-especially cheaper brass. Not sure, what lathe work is required on the rim? (I couldnt read your book). Jerry, make a drawing of all dimensions of the chamber cast and report on them. It might make more sense that way.

Please do slug the bore and give us the result so you can move forward. . Be careful with this, like the 74R, the 9.3 Sauer is a .375 H&H class round.

Best,

C.


Edited by C. Kofoed (09/06/11 08:21 PM)

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#242716 - 09/06/11 07:23 PM Re: Chanber casting question 9.3x72 Sauer? [Re: Jerry Mouer]
12brd Offline
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Registered: 02/29/08
Posts: 523
I've got a bunch of Cerrosafe(as in pounds) and if anyone wants some to do chamber casts I'll sell it cheap. PM me with how much you need. JW

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#242717 - 09/06/11 07:25 PM Re: Chanber casting question 9.3x72 Sauer? [Re: Jerry Mouer]
ellenbr Offline
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Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 5814
Loc: North Alabama
No, no, no. Don't even get close to it with a reamer. I use brass for a 9.3X72R with a 9.3X74R headstamp very often with no issues. They were acquired from Buffalo Arms and I ask not how they were converted. But, but they have to be full length sized very closely to fit those tight chambers. We need your base, rim, etc. dimensions. I think all the answers given with the "72 D" stamp, which had a slightly wider base as 11.0mm and a rim that seems to have varied between 12.20mm to 12.50mm depending on the cartridge maker. The case has more of a taper than the average ole 9.3X72R. I see this tight chamber issue quite often due to all the variations. Just closely resize the brass full length and note those for this drilling only. Many times the same issue is seen in the 8.15X46 1/2 R target arms.

Kind Regards,


Raimey
rse

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#242724 - 09/06/11 07:41 PM Re: Chanber casting question 9.3x72 Sauer? [Re: Jerry Mouer]
C. Kofoed Offline
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Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 631
Loc: Idaho
Please read the posts very carefully. Unfortunatley, most folks are off-base. Make a drawing if it helps. It would be impossible to "normalize" a 9.3 Sauer to 9.3x72R.

Very best,

C.


Edited by C. Kofoed (09/06/11 07:44 PM)

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#242726 - 09/06/11 07:49 PM Re: Chanber casting question 9.3x72 Sauer? [Re: Jerry Mouer]
ellenbr Offline
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Registered: 08/10/07
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Loc: North Alabama
I don't know what you infer on close reading but until dimensions point to the rare bird 9.3 Sauer, I have strong reservations as to the possibility, which has a very low probability. I think the red herring to be the "9.3 Sauer" term for now. I shoot several Meffert's with the same issue. It is a base issue and not a case mouth or neck. Many times Teschner-Collath examples have the 9.3X72R d stamp on the extractor. If anyone has ammo that will fit, M4 will be the most likely choice.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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#242750 - 09/06/11 09:07 PM Re: Chanber casting question 9.3x72 Sauer? [Re: Jerry Mouer]
skeettx Offline
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Registered: 06/03/08
Posts: 2057
Loc: Amarillo, Texas
What I have been trying to get through is the cartridge might be a 9x72R Sauer and NOT a 9.3X72R Sauer

Mike
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#242755 - 09/06/11 09:36 PM Re: Chanber casting question 9.3x72 Sauer? [Re: ellenbr]
Jerry Mouer Offline
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Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 181
Loc: MD
Everything on Hold.

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#242961 - 09/07/11 06:01 PM Re: Chanber casting question 9.3x72 Sauer? [Re: Jerry Mouer]
steve white Offline
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Registered: 05/22/11
Posts: 553
A 9.3 case will stick out of a 9x72 chamber about as much as you described. Have you resized to 9x72 to try for a good fit. Frankly, I like the bullet selection in .358 a lot better than the 9.3's anyhow. I am with Mouer on reaming to 9x72 if it is an odd straight walled case that mics out enough metal to get away with it. the 9x72 is fairly low pressure. Be careful. Steve

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#242995 - 09/07/11 08:16 PM Re: Chanber casting question 9.3x72 Sauer? [Re: Jerry Mouer]
ellenbr Offline
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Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 5814
Loc: North Alabama
I'm not sure which 9x72 ya'll refer to but there was a 9x70 which either developed along the same timeline in Germany as the 400/360 Westley Richards, or some other maker, did in England. I assume the 9.3X74R came next followed by the proprietary 9.3X72R S&S sometime in 1906 - 1908. As Kofoed notes the 9.3X72R S&S(Sauer) is not in the lot with all the 9.3X72R variants. If a 9.3X72R variant(D,E,N, etc.) was dropped into a 9.3X72R S&S(Sauer) the rifling would more than likely break the fall of the cartride by catching the taper of the brass. A 9.3X74R(seventy four) will insert and fire in a(some) 9.3X72R S&S(Sauer). If a 9.3X72R will not insert into the chamber, it is not a 9.3X72R S&S(Sauer). I've only seen one and heard rumour of another sporting weapon chambered in 9.3X72R S&S(Sauer). But there could be other pre-1912 rifled tubes out there which are thought to be 9.3X74R(seventy four) that are actually 9.3X72R S&S(Sauer).

Below will give a general idea of the shape of the 9.3X72R S&S(Sauer).


Advertised as 400/360 Purdey similar but not same as 400/360 Westley Richards


400/360 Westley Richards

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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#243116 - 09/08/11 02:22 PM Re: Chanber casting question 9.3x72 Sauer? [Re: ellenbr]
Jerry Mouer Offline
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Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 181
Loc: MD
Fear not, I contacted Stars & Strips Custom Ammuniton today regarding the 9.3x72R Sauer whitch they will make for me,(20ea) including shipping and insurance it will cost me about $100.00. I will send my casting that encludes about 1/2 inch of the rifling. This will made sure we are getting the correct cartrige for this old drilling.

The cartrige conversion displayed on page 1 of this post are of the 9.3x72R Sauer and a 9.3x74R, when I studied the drawing with a magnafier, two completly differnt cartriges.

Now I'll have a few to shoot and some to stick in the cartrige trap in the buttstock.

Thanks to everyone for your help.

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#243170 - 09/08/11 07:08 PM Re: Chanber casting question 9.3x72 Sauer? [Re: Jerry Mouer]
skeettx Offline
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Registered: 06/03/08
Posts: 2057
Loc: Amarillo, Texas
Jerry,
SWEET, good choice, please let us know if Stars & Stipes use a .358 bullet or a .366 bullet,
Thanks again for a stimulating post
Mike
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#243180 - 09/08/11 09:26 PM Re: Chanber casting question 9.3x72 Sauer? [Re: skeettx]
m-4 Offline
Sidelock

Registered: 02/03/07
Posts: 117
Hi Jerry,
Raimey has called me out! I have about a 1/2 dozen guns in the 9.3x72R chambering & over 500 rnds of ammo & brass and I have a habit of collecting vintage ammo as well as guns, so I went up into the loading room and pulled 4 boxes of factory vintage ammo for measurements, my measurements were just taken with a pair of Brown & Sharp dial calipers so not exact. 1st recomendation is to get a copy of the 3 part article Mike Ford wrote for the GGCA and read it carefully as it is stuffed with lots of info for this fine cartridge. Let me start by saying the same factory cartridges will not fit in all my guns and I always drop each round from the selected box into the chamber of the rifle I am going to use it in so I don't end up with any suprises in the woods.If I were to grab one of my tight chambered early guns I found that the vintage old Norma 10 rnd boxes of 9.3x72R D with the red labels usually seemed to be the most universal in fitting all the guns, so taking these measurements even suprised me a bit. Measurements were, rim dia., then each 1" increment toward the mouth, then case mouth dia., & last bullet dia.

DWM 9.3x72R .483 .425 .403 .382 .380 .363 bullet

RWS 9.3x72R .483 .425 .405 .382 .382 .367 bullet

Gedaco9.3x72R NORM .483 .423 .400 .385 .383 .365 bullet

Norma 9.3x72R D .480 .427 .405 .385 .382 .365 bullet

DWM Handload .483 .425 .403 .383 .384 .364 bullet

I geuss the biggest lesson learned in this little exercise is that just a couple of thousands of an inch dia. in a long slow tapering case such as this makes a big difference in fitting the chamber and that ammo specifications at the turn of the century were not as exact as todays expectation. Folks were able to purchase manufacturers brand of ammo that the chamber was cut to and the gun regulated to! 100 years later and halfway around the world we have to learn to accept this and experiment and test various available ammo or take a good casting & have dies made for the chamber being used today. Get a good casting & slug your bore & take notes, once you know what you have and obtain you components its time for the fun to start! Feel free to contact me if I can be of any assistance.

M-4

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#243316 - 09/09/11 06:05 PM Re: Chanber casting question 9.3x72 Sauer? [Re: m-4]
Jerry Mouer Offline
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Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 181
Loc: MD
I did a search today for "Metric Centerfire Rifle Cartriges", I found three different 9.3x72R cartriges

9.3x72R

9.3x72R Sauer

9.3x72R Nimrod

All of these rounds are pretty close, but the Sauer and the Nimrod have a smaller rim dia.

Did some more checking for fit on a Emil Eckoldt, Suhl, drilling (no proof date) and found that the rim size on the oldest(?) rounds were to large for the extracter and the base dia. just ahead of the rim to large

My education continues.

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