doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Joseph Jakob, Philadelphia gunmaker...

I asked about this maker a few months ago.

Finally took some decent photos of the gun. It's a Lindner, BTW, and marked with the crossed pistols.

Check it out:

http://www.dogsanddoubles.com/

Thanks

OWD

It may be that Joseph Jakob acquired a gesteck or parts kit from H.A. Lindner and finished it, but I'd be skeptical. He may have contributed some effort on the embellishment seeing the engraving isn't the typical New English Arabesque(Neuenglische Arabesken ) engraving or whatever the correct term might be. The pattern welded tubes were sourced from Liege(not Suhl) and a best guess is that August Blatt of Albrechts was contracted to perform most of the tube set tasks. With the 621 Anson & Deeley patent number I'm sure Ken has a best production date. "A.B." is also seen on examples in the 35xx and 36xx range.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/20948056 - Drew has an image of a Daly(HAL 358???) that has the "A.B." stamp. I think Dr. Hause to be South of the Border?

I wonder since Lindner's Dalys and those to other American firearms merchants were abroad to be the reason for the A&D patent number? It would appear that H.A. Lindner in addition to the tubes sourced permission for the A&D action? Maybe he was the one sourcing a gesteck from a Belgian maker? But then there's the issue of Belgian proofmarks that may have been worked off or hidden. Are there any domestic or inland H.A. Lindners with the A&D Brevete stamp? A&D 1875 patent monopoly would have been in place for a period of 20 years. Possibly after the 5th year there was a renewal fee??? Does anyone know how long A&D paid for the patent to be current?

http://www.google.com/patents?id=zYJPAAA...p;q&f=false
A&D U.S. of A. Patent 172943 of 1876.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Upon pondering, it would not matter how long A&D kept the British monopoly in place seeing that A&D also filed for protection in the U.S. of A. H.A. Lindner was making a device based on the design while Daly was importing the technology into the U.S. of A. where the protection duration was 14 years. With the term Brevete I wouldn't think there to be a similar German filed version and I think 1877 was the 1st year of the German patent office. I wonder how retailing the technology or use compares to manufacture under a patent? Some patent attorney, maybe Mr. Martin Krause, could put me on the straight & narrow here? So seeing the U.S. of A. patent was granted in 1876 then the last year for a Daly sporting weapon to wear the Brevete stamp would be 1890, barring a 7 year extension on the same novel idea.

OWD if you feel my thinking out loud(& I may be talking to myself but it is in print) is hijacking the thread I'll gladly move it to a Daly thread that I've already hijacked.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey-

No problem. The more you think out loud, the more I learn.

I appreciate the input.

OWD

Raimey,

Hopefully Martin will jump in here. He and I have had some private exchanges about patents. He has taught me a lot.

I have tried searching the German patent database, but keep getting errors.

Pete

Peter, I invite comment and conjecture from sauerfan and anyone willing to chime in on the patent aspect. Do you know of any A&D use stamps on Belgian sporting weapons?

I did manage to spend some time today quizzing an attorney grounded in patents and wills on his dime. The end user/retailer Daly, who did make outlandish claims that sporting weapons were made in his factory in Suhl, is the one who would have expereinced the full brunt of the monopoly/policing power of the U.S. of A. filed patent protection of A&D in a U.S. of A. courtroom, had the royalty not been paid to A&D. Whether a patent, law, rule, covenant in a homeowner's association, the policing power is via the courts. These rules, etc. are predicated for the most part on 2 ideas: 1st almost all folks are law abiding citizens and that those who enforce are not corruptable. But Daly would have in turn attempted to sue H.A. Lindner on a very weak case across international waters in Germany, where more than likely an A&D patent was not filed. That's why there are those early boxlocks very similar to those of H.A. Lindner/Daly without the A&D use number. Today A&D would have sued all and H.A. Lindner would have been the defendent in 2 cases. For now I would guess that the connections of either August Heindrick Schoverling or Charles Daly both had extensive connections and could have brokered a deal with an entity in Liege who was dolling out A&D permission/use numbers. I wonder how one tracks those use numbers anyway. Would A&D records yield anything? So Schoverling & Daly arranged and probably paid H.A. Lindner to pay the permission/use royalty, which was forwarded on to A&D. The whole patent thing is a reason with high probability why Sauer didn't concentrate their efforts on an A&D boxlock and instead toyed with the psuedo-sidelock & sidelock models that were exported to the U.S. of A. I don't think Sauer offered an A&D boxlock till the mid to late 1890s which would have been just after the patent expired in Britian & the U.S. of A. I wonder if Sauer was reluctant to offer a Daly A&D or if H.A. Lindner had the Daly A&D market cornered? Oscar Will Venuswaffenwerk of Zella Sankt Blasii offered a similar A&D model about the same time and at least by 1902.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I forgot to note that Daly had to be involved with the H.A. Lindner-Joseph Jakob deal or H.A. Lindner would have been alone sourcing the A&D use number. Then then above post would be all wet.

I would guess the Joseph Jakob sporting weapon in question to be from the early to mid 1880s.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, I'm with OWD. Please continue thinking out loud. Fascinating and informative.

Regards,

James

Ya'll fellas must easily entertained???

I wonder where in the world this Charles Daly 32 bore Regent Diamond bore was hiding before it was flushed out by Steve Barnett?? - go to the 410 bore category and then down to Charles Daly 32 bore


http://www.stevebarnettfineguns.com/frm_inventory1.htm
Let's see the marks on it!

I wonder where Sauer sourced the crocodile for the case? I guess it and the gold bunny on the butt drives up the price a bit.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse